The chancellor of the California community college system has stated that institutions’ algebra requirements are “the biggest barrier” for “underemployed or unemployed Americans,” and as such is … a civil rights issue. No matter whether you're a fan of math or not, it's clearly an important subject to learn. After all, how would you buy food at a grocery store, cook it, and then divide it amongst your family members without knowing basic math? https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/34755/ http://www.npr.org/2017/07/19/538092649/say-goodbye-to-x-y-should-community-colleges-abolish-algebra
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The vast, vast majority of people dont even need anything beyond pemdas in their lives.
Why should it be a requirement for a degree that doesnt use math? |
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Isn't Algebra already a requirement in most high schools? In college I also think statistics should be required.
If you build a man a fire, he is warm for the rest of the night.
If you set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life. |
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argonautweakend posted...
The vast, vast majority of people dont even need anything beyond pemdas in their lives. With Algebra you get your pemdas education. Any educated person should also have an understanding of the basics of how to "solve for x".
If you build a man a fire, he is warm for the rest of the night.
If you set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life.
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McDonaldTrumpX posted...
Consider these examples: It's time to fill up your car's gas tank. The price of gas per gallon is $3 and you only have $25 to spend. How much gas can you purchase? This can be answered by the algebraic equation, 3x = 25. You must divide each side of the equation by 3 in order to isolate x. In this equation, x is equal to 25 divided by 3, which is 8.33 gallons of gas. If you need 10 gallons of gas, how much money do you need? When you solve that equation, you have algebra to thank! Oh man... how in the world could you solve these without Algebra? Oh yea $25/3 and 10*$3. Division and multiplication...
Last night I was lying in bed, staring at the stars, and I wondered... Where the **** is my roof?
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aarrgus posted...
McDonaldTrumpX posted...Consider these examples: It's time to fill up your car's gas tank. The price of gas per gallon is $3 and you only have $25 to spend. How much gas can you purchase? This can be answered by the algebraic equation, 3x = 25. You must divide each side of the equation by 3 in order to isolate x. In this equation, x is equal to 25 divided by 3, which is 8.33 gallons of gas. If you need 10 gallons of gas, how much money do you need? When you solve that equation, you have algebra to thank! You used Algebra to demonstrate why you don't need Algebra? Division and multiplying are tools used in Algebra.
If you build a man a fire, he is warm for the rest of the night.
If you set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life.
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I bet those are the same types of people that think they don't need to know how computers work and then you see them on the news for getting scammed out of their money from fake Microsoft representatives. News flash you don't learn things so they have immediate application to your lives. The person who didn't take algebra would probably also take $100/day to cut grass for a month over the person that gets 1 penny and doubles it every day for a month.
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Orange Clockwork posted...
aarrgus posted...McDonaldTrumpX posted...Consider these examples: It's time to fill up your car's gas tank. The price of gas per gallon is $3 and you only have $25 to spend. How much gas can you purchase? This can be answered by the algebraic equation, 3x = 25. You must divide each side of the equation by 3 in order to isolate x. In this equation, x is equal to 25 divided by 3, which is 8.33 gallons of gas. If you need 10 gallons of gas, how much money do you need? When you solve that equation, you have algebra to thank! So is addition. Are you saying 2+2 is Algebra? Because Algebra is more than just +-*/.
Last night I was lying in bed, staring at the stars, and I wondered... Where the **** is my roof?
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aarrgus posted...
Orange Clockwork posted...aarrgus posted...McDonaldTrumpX posted...Consider these examples: It's time to fill up your car's gas tank. The price of gas per gallon is $3 and you only have $25 to spend. How much gas can you purchase? This can be answered by the algebraic equation, 3x = 25. You must divide each side of the equation by 3 in order to isolate x. In this equation, x is equal to 25 divided by 3, which is 8.33 gallons of gas. If you need 10 gallons of gas, how much money do you need? When you solve that equation, you have algebra to thank! You just solved for X with your $25/3 equation. That is an algebra problem. How is 2+2 alone an algebra problem?
If you build a man a fire, he is warm for the rest of the night.
If you set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life.
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Orange Clockwork posted...
aarrgus posted...Orange Clockwork posted...aarrgus posted...McDonaldTrumpX posted...Consider these examples: It's time to fill up your car's gas tank. The price of gas per gallon is $3 and you only have $25 to spend. How much gas can you purchase? This can be answered by the algebraic equation, 3x = 25. You must divide each side of the equation by 3 in order to isolate x. In this equation, x is equal to 25 divided by 3, which is 8.33 gallons of gas. If you need 10 gallons of gas, how much money do you need? When you solve that equation, you have algebra to thank! I listed 25/3 and 3*10. Neither is a solve for X.
Last night I was lying in bed, staring at the stars, and I wondered... Where the **** is my roof?
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It's not the algerbra.
It's the ability to learn algebra. If you can't even pass high school level algrebra, then I don't want to hire you. Not because you may need algebra for the job. But because you lack the either the drive or the ability to learn even the most basic critical thinking skills needed for algebra.
Faye Wong
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I read this article the other day, I thought it was a good article because NPR was asking the right clarifying questions (Isn't gutting Algebra just the easy way out, Doesn't learning Algebra have intrinsic benefits that make it worthwhile).
Ultimately I found all of his answers inadequate; I don't want to type up a huge wall of text detailing why I think his views are wrong, but at some point in time he mentions that statistics should be taught instead, because it is more practical math and more relevant in other areas of study. This is completely true, but this guy apparently doesn't realize that even if you remove logarithms and quadratic regression from statistical analysis, you would still need to know about linear regression, which involves slope, equation of a line....that's still Algebra! There's a reason why Algebra II is the pre requisite for high school statistics....The guy wants to get rid of Algebra so that a class requiring Algebra skills can be taught instead. He's not making any sense.
"Not Impossible. Inevitable."
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aarrgus posted...
Orange Clockwork posted...aarrgus posted...Orange Clockwork posted...aarrgus posted...McDonaldTrumpX posted...Consider these examples: It's time to fill up your car's gas tank. The price of gas per gallon is $3 and you only have $25 to spend. How much gas can you purchase? This can be answered by the algebraic equation, 3x = 25. You must divide each side of the equation by 3 in order to isolate x. In this equation, x is equal to 25 divided by 3, which is 8.33 gallons of gas. If you need 10 gallons of gas, how much money do you need? When you solve that equation, you have algebra to thank! To even get to the point where you know you need to divide by 3 that takes a basic understanding of Algebra. 3x = 25 means you divide 25 by 3, which is what you just did. 2 + x = 4 is also an Algebra problem.
If you build a man a fire, he is warm for the rest of the night.
If you set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life. |
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The issue isn't basic arithmetic but intermediate algebra classes that require knowing order of operations, solving quadratic equations, using a graphing calculator, etc. You're basically saying we should keep intermediate algebra because basic algebra is useful.
I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous
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Orange Clockwork posted...
To even get to the point where you know you need to divide by 3 that takes a basic understanding of Algebra. 3x = 25 means you divide 25 by 3, which is what you just did. 2 + x = 4 is also an Algebra problem. I never used 3x = 25. 25/3 is not an Algebra problem. Do you not understand what Algebra is?
Last night I was lying in bed, staring at the stars, and I wondered... Where the **** is my roof?
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Why are you multiplying 3 and $10? How does that answer the problem at hand?
If you build a man a fire, he is warm for the rest of the night.
If you set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life. |
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Angelblade posted...
It's not the algerbra. Romans and Greeks didn't have or use algebra.
I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous |
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Orange Clockwork posted...
Why are you multiplying 3 and $10? How does that answer the problem at hand? It's the second example they used.... are you having a stroke or something?
Last night I was lying in bed, staring at the stars, and I wondered... Where the **** is my roof?
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aarrgus posted...
Orange Clockwork posted...To even get to the point where you know you need to divide by 3 that takes a basic understanding of Algebra. 3x = 25 means you divide 25 by 3, which is what you just did. 2 + x = 4 is also an Algebra problem. I don't think you understand what it is. You took shortcuts to come to the realization 25/3 was how you found the answer, but you just skipped over a basic step in algebra to get there. The way the word problem is set up is 3x=25, it does not start off as 25/3.
If you build a man a fire, he is warm for the rest of the night.
If you set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life. |
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Orange Clockwork posted...
Why are you multiplying 3 and $10? How does that answer the problem at hand? While what @aarrgus is doing is algebra in the most basic sense, it's also just "common sense." A Roman could have done that. Indeed someone who can count can do it. He's not setting up a formal equation or doing quadratic equations. The issue is "intermediate algebra" and you're focused on basic math that happens to be able to be formatted as an algebraic equation.
I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous |
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AndreLeGeant posted...
Orange Clockwork posted...Why are you multiplying 3 and $10? How does that answer the problem at hand? It's common sense because we know the basics of how algebra works intuitively. He already setup a formal equation in his head without realizing it and jumped to the next step for the calculation. The question is about as basic as it gets with algebra, but algebra is what he just did.
If you build a man a fire, he is warm for the rest of the night.
If you set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life.
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Orange Clockwork posted...
aarrgus posted...Orange Clockwork posted...To even get to the point where you know you need to divide by 3 that takes a basic understanding of Algebra. 3x = 25 means you divide 25 by 3, which is what you just did. 2 + x = 4 is also an Algebra problem. It does in people's heads. They realize it is 25/3 without ever needing the algebraic equation. The algebra expresses a basic premise people naturally comprehend. It then takes those basic equations and uses the formatting to create more complex equations through additional variables that one does not naturally "get" in the same way.
I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous |
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Orange Clockwork posted...
AndreLeGeant posted...Orange Clockwork posted...Why are you multiplying 3 and $10? How does that answer the problem at hand? Algebra is a way of expressing what he did. He didn't do algebra. Algebra is a language that enables one to solve for variables. You don't need algebra to solve for basic variables. Many people have done it without algebra. Romans and Greeks didn't have algebra yet they could solve the basic word problems presented here. The issue is whether you need to teach intermediate algebra.
I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous |
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AndreLeGeant posted...
It does in people's heads. They realize it is 25/3 without ever needing the algebraic equation. The algebra expresses a basic premise people naturally comprehend. It then takes those basic equations and uses the formatting to create more complex equations through additional variables that one does not naturally "get" in the same way. It doesn't matter if he did this intuitively in his head, it was still an algebra problem. Algebra explains why it works. Whether one naturally "gets" the equation or not is irrelevant. Some incredibly smart people understand much more complex math intuitively after years of learning but that doesn't mean that math boils down to basic arithmetic.
If you build a man a fire, he is warm for the rest of the night.
If you set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life. |
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AndreLeGeant posted...
Orange Clockwork posted...AndreLeGeant posted...Orange Clockwork posted...Why are you multiplying 3 and $10? How does that answer the problem at hand? Yes this. Thank you for expressing this better than I can apparently lol.
Last night I was lying in bed, staring at the stars, and I wondered... Where the **** is my roof?
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I don't know if algebra should be absolutely required but I think a logic course should be. I think it is important for people to have the ability to think logically....especially considering who we voted in.
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AP3Brain posted...
I don't know if algebra should be absolutely required but I think a logic course should be. I think it is important for people to have the ability to think logically....especially considering who we voted in. I would actually support doing geometry before algebra in schools because of the importance of proofs and logic.
I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous |
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\AndreLeGeant posted...
Algebra is a way of expressing what he did. He didn't do algebra. He created a mental model in his mind to come to this conclusion. Whether he intuitively thought the words "algebra" when he did it is irrelevant, algebra explains why it works. Romans and Greeks didn't have algebra yet they could solve the basic word problems presented here. Yes they did, it just might not have been called algebra. That's like saying prehistoric people didn't use arithmetic when they intuitively understood 2+2=4 just because arithmetic as a formal learning discipline wasn't developed yet.
If you build a man a fire, he is warm for the rest of the night.
If you set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life. |
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Algebra is a way of writing a problem. You don't do algebra unless you solve the problem algebraicly. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what algebra is.
You don't need algebra to solve for the question, how many bales of hay did I start with if I lost 6 and delivered 10? You know intuitively that you had 16. You could write that algebraicly as 10 = x - 6. But unless you do that, you aren't doing algebra. Algebra is cool because you can write things that come intuitively and then add more and more variables. Without algebra you wouldn't be able to keep track of those variables. As such algebra allows you to consider more "what ifs" in a concisely written manner. But unless you are writing out a problem algebraicly you are not doing algebra
I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous |
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They could do a better job at this. None of those problems actually require algebra. Actually, they're all basic addition or subtraction and fractions which I think people learn by third grade.
That being said, whether algebra is necessary depends a whole lot on what they're learning to do and that isn't explained here.
PSN and Steam - Byuusetsu
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This topic is f***ing stupid because @Orange_Clockwork will continue rambling about basic algebra and ignore the bigger argument of intermediate algebra.
Although, i am curious...what is orange's opinion on the common core approach to math?
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Topics like this one are why I no longer offer public defenses on why calculus is critical to understanding the world.
Moustache twirling villian
http://i.imgur.com/uV2Wf1H.jpg- Kerbey |
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The main reason kids have trouble with algebra and other advanced mathematics (and learning foreign languages) is because (most) schools don't attempt to push it to them until they are in middle or high school, when they are more likely to be entering the "rebellious" puberty years and have other things on their mind. Back on the language scene, look at all the kids of immigrants who speak both the parents native language and whatever is the common language of the area (we'll just presume that is english for this discussion). Many of those kids speak both languages fluently by the time they are ten. Mathmatics are similar, easier to learn at younger ages. But American public schools just aren't interested in actually TEACHING the kids anything.
+-MWG-+
3DS FC: 5327-0943-2655 |
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MWG posted...
The main reason kids have trouble with algebra and other advanced mathematics (and learning foreign languages) is because (most) schools don't attempt to push it to them until they are in middle or high school, when they are more likely to be entering the "rebellious" puberty years and have other things on their mind. Back on the language scene, look at all the kids of immigrants who speak both the parents native language and whatever is the common language of the area (we'll just presume that is english for this discussion). Many of those kids speak both languages fluently by the time they are ten. Mathmatics are similar, easier to learn at younger ages. But American public schools just aren't interested in actually TEACHING the kids anything. I knew plenty of kids who struggled with basic math in school. It's not like a language. Learning a language as an immigrant results in constant "study." You don't do math constantly.
I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous |
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AndreLeGeant posted...
AP3Brain posted...I don't know if algebra should be absolutely required but I think a logic course should be. I think it is important for people to have the ability to think logically....especially considering who we voted in. Uh, are you aware that students struggle the most with the proofs and logic part in Geometry classes, maybe even moreso than the abstract thinking in Algebra? You support having students try something that developmentally would be very tough for them, and you want them to do it a full year earlier than when they are currently doing it? You also implied that we don't need to teach "intermediate" Algebra because it's not applicable to real life situations. Can you describe some real life applications that can result from teaching Geometry first?
"Not Impossible. Inevitable."
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Judgbolt posted...
AndreLeGeant posted...AP3Brain posted...I don't know if algebra should be absolutely required but I think a logic course should be. I think it is important for people to have the ability to think logically....especially considering who we voted in. You're conflating two points. The first is, should students have to pass intermediate algebra (Algebra I) to graduate? I say no. I would say the same about geometry. The second is, should we do algebra or geometry first? I think we should do geometry first. The reason being first that it is more visual, and second because it forces you to think in terms of logic and rules. Proofs in geometry aren't used directly in life but the way they make you think gets used in many professions, from law to computer coding to any field that requires you to consider various causes and effects
I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous |
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AndreLeGeant posted...
You don't do math constantly. Of course you do. You can't go 5 seconds without doing some sort of elementary math. Unless you in a coma.
Moustache twirling villian
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divot1338 posted...
AndreLeGeant posted...You don't do math constantly. Let me rephrase. You can't do math like taught in school constantly. Though I haven't done math yet since I woke up except in this topic
I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous
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AndreLeGeant posted...
Romans and Greeks didn't have or use algebra. That's an alternative fact, because a Greek mathematician named Diophantus is literally called the FATHER OF ALGEBRA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantus And the article is nonsense because it is near-impossible to study any sort of meaningful Statistics without having some sort of knowledge of Algebra For example, what is the mean of a group of numbers? How do you obtain it? If you add in a bigger number, how does the mean change? If one of the scores goes up, how much does the mean go up by? These are all some of the most basic and elementary questions you could ask in a Statistics course and yet they can't be done without some sort of understanding of Algebra first Is there some sort of correlation between variables X and Y? How do you know, and can a formula be derived to explain it? What does the relationship look like? And most importantly, what do you need to know to answer all of those things? Basic Algebra. If you don't know what the equation of a linear function is nor how to solve a linear equation, you can't learn statistics. Linear regression, arguably one of the most basic topics in statistics, cannot be adequately learned or understood without at least *some* knowledge of Algebra.
Not changing this sig until the Knicks win the NBA Championship! Started...4/23/2011? Or was it 2010?
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argonautweakend posted...
The vast, vast majority of people dont even need anything beyond pemdas in their lives. It would help if people actually knew the order of operations because most of the time they don't
Not changing this sig until the Knicks win the NBA Championship! Started...4/23/2011? Or was it 2010?
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SSj4Wingzero posted...
AndreLeGeant posted...Romans and Greeks didn't have or use algebra. That is late antiquity. Not very influential. Algebra is a language to describe a problem. You can solve real world problems without using it. We aren't talking about basic algebra but intermediate
I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous
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So you were wrong then? OK, got it
Not changing this sig until the Knicks win the NBA Championship! Started...4/23/2011? Or was it 2010?
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AndreLeGeant posted...
So you would say "no" to either of them being a requirement to graduate; okay that makes more sense. I would still argue though that proofs are harder for students than x's and y's and should stay as second year math. Is the reason why we don't think Intermediate Algebra is necessary because we feel common sense math is really all we need to get through life? What about the indirect benefits, some of which has been mentioned? I think they are important enough to warrant an Algebra Requirement for graduation. SSj4Wingzero posted...
I can tell you used to be a teacher =)
"Not Impossible. Inevitable."
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Mathematical literacy is vital. I agree with the notion that students should have to take a basic stats class too. Now, there is a problem with math education-- but that's not algebra's fault. When we see more PoC failing algebra, maybe we should address the "why" rather than naively assume they're bad at it. What a terrible approach.
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SSj4Wingzero posted...
So you were wrong then? OK, got it No because when we say Greeks and Romans we generally mean Greeks and Romans at large. Not an Alexandrian in late antiquity whose work had no impact till much later. @Judgbolt I want people able to get jobs. I don't want to stop someone from being employable if they can't solve a quadratic equation. One can learn logic and critical thinking simply by going through life.
I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous |
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"What we’re saying is we want as rigorous a course as possible to determine a student’s ability to succeed, but it should be relevant to their course of study."
I have an advanced degree in mathematics as well as other. The fact is, having people that do not need Algebra or advanced mathematics be required to take these courses is stupid. It is like in the High Schools around here. Somebody who has the skills to succeed in many degree areas in college are required to take algebra classes. Straight A student that struggles in these courses that they will never need and sees their GPA fall. It is better to have degrees have set requirements. Many have certain mathematics requirement levels to get in. That is far better than trying to force it. And you lose kids due to some of these things. And that can mean these kids grow up and end up doing factory work that any low level education person could do. Or fast food and other low level jobs. Yet they could succeed in many fields. I used to tutor in college. People who were not passing. I helped one woman I went to school with. She did pass and went on to a very nice career. I saw her about 2 months ago and she was talking about all that. She would have failed without a lot of unnecessary work. She uses none of that stuff at all in her field. It is the difference between $15,000 a year or so and the $82,000 she is making now. Totally stupid. |
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Algebra one isn't even required most places, just pre Algebra. I took algebra 1 when I started the 8th grade and I could do it in my sleep, can't imagine how brain dead pre algebra is.
Console war in a nutshell:
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G_U_G posted...
"What we’re saying is we want as rigorous a course as possible to determine a student’s ability to succeed, but it should be relevant to their course of study." Don't single out algebra. I was pissed off when I had to retake some of the useless history, literature, and Calculus 1 I already took in high school (the latter because I sure as hell wasn't taking pre Calculus or an Algebra course). General education courses generally retread what people learned in high school. My huh school had a graduating senior class of around 50 and I didn't learn squat from the Gen Ed's in college that I didn't already know.
Console war in a nutshell:
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I'm not so sure about California's requirements but here in NY you just need one core mathematics course to graduate from a City University and usually the class is quite easy. You can even choose from non-math classes which satisfy the requirement! One of my students I tutored is going to take an "Intro to Computers" class where they just learn Word/Excel/Access, and that satisfies the math requirement for his diploma. I wasn't even aware that intermediate algebra was required in college.
In New York State, all you *technically* need to graduate from high school is Algebra 1, which incorporates solving linear and quadratic equations, manipulating and understanding linear and quadratic functions, arithmetic and geometric sequences, basic measures of central tendency, and a *brief* bit on exponential functions. That's the bare minimum. Once you have those then you can go to a community college - the ones run by NYC itself don't require anything more than a single math class. The ones that they offer are usually incredibly easy - you can usually take one that's related to your field of study that's taught by a professor in that department. Like "Statistics for Social Science", for example. You could conceivably get a Bachelor's degree without even touching Algebra 2, and I think that's OK, but high schools offer it because obviously they do.
Not changing this sig until the Knicks win the NBA Championship! Started...4/23/2011? Or was it 2010?
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AndreLeGeant posted...
This is kind of an arbitrary example, but if you were to turn on the news today and you heard something along the lines of "the growth rate of our rat population is quadratic in nature" or "the change in acceleration is going to adversely affect what initial velocity can be", I think that as a random citizen living in the US, you should have enough of a general understanding of things to carry a normal conversation about it, or at least know enough to be able to read up on it and understand it. Maybe Quadratic Equations in Algebra don't need to go up to complex numbers, maybe students should be allowed calculators to help with the computation part, but not teaching the concept at all, not requiring it to pass? That sounds like a bad idea. And if you can't solve regular quadratic equations with a calculator, how employable are you anyway?
"Not Impossible. Inevitable."
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- College official: drop algebra req because it's the most failed course by PoCs
Don't drop algebra as a requirement. It's disgraceful enough that some of the college students that I had in my review sessions as a T.A. didn't have a good grasp on algebra, but given that it's a more widespread problem, the more obvious solution is to examine mathematical pedagogy in high school, give schools the resources to appropriately support the curriculum, and do more to address the underlying socioeconomic factors in communities that make it difficult for some students to focus on learning. It's hard to study anything effectively if you're hungry each morning, suffer from chronic health problems, or live in areas plagued by violence. Jonathan Kozol, author of Savage Inequalities, has quite a bit to say on the latter subjects.
Besides being foundational to all sorts of later mathematics, algebra is a way of teaching systematized approaches to problem solving, a broadly applicable skill. And I don't think it's unreasonable for employers to expect that any applicant who says they have a college degree should at least be proficient at a certain level of mathematics.PraetorXyn posted...
Don't single out algebra. I was pissed off when I had to retake some of the useless history, literature, and Calculus 1 I already took in high school (the latter because I sure as hell wasn't taking pre Calculus or an Algebra course). General education courses generally retread what people learned in high school. My huh school had a graduating senior class of around 50 and I didn't learn squat from the Gen Ed's in college that I didn't already know.
Yeah that's another good point. I mean, do we *really* need to know how to read and analyze Shakespeare any more than we need to learn how to solve a Quadratic equation? Probably not, but we teach it anyway. The education system requires these things because the idea is for students to know a little bit of everything. For some reason math consistently gets singled out as something students "no longer need to know" despite the fact that technology and quantitative reasoning is more important than ever in today's economy.Not changing this sig until the Knicks win the NBA Championship! Started...4/23/2011? Or was it 2010?In favor of. I wasn't required to take Math when I was in college (you may ask me which one I went to, but some people's heads would explode). I was however to take at least one course that met the requirements of "Quantitative Analysis." In my case the first such course I took was Intro Psych.
So there are ways to get the same good result (sharpening your intellectual skills is very important) while having a higher chance of avoiding the bad result.Do your own research!SSj4Wingzero posted...PraetorXyn posted...
Don't single out algebra. I was pissed off when I had to retake some of the useless history, literature, and Calculus 1 I already took in high school (the latter because I sure as hell wasn't taking pre Calculus or an Algebra course). General education courses generally retread what people learned in high school. My huh school had a graduating senior class of around 50 and I didn't learn squat from the Gen Ed's in college that I didn't already know.
Yeah that's another good point. I mean, do we *really* need to know how to read and analyze Shakespeare any more than we need to learn how to solve a Quadratic equation? Probably not, but we teach it anyway. The education system requires these things because the idea is for students to know a little bit of everything. For some reason math consistently gets singled out as something students "no longer need to know" despite the fact that technology and quantitative reasoning is more important than ever in today's economy.
I do think we need to know those things. I just think it's a waste for the first two years of college (for most people) to rehash high school plus a Psychology and maybe a Sociology or Philosophy course.Console war in a nutshell:
http://imgur.com/xA6GJZ9.pngThe message this person is sending makes sense for non-STEM fields. You don't need algebra for those kinds of degrees. Algebra should be exchanged as a requirement for a different requirement like Geometry or something."It's as simple as A-B-C Mr. Baskin...lock your windows."
"Hey, we were just getting into the significance of nuclear love!"untrustful posted...The message this person is sending makes sense for non-STEM fields. You don't need algebra for those kinds of degrees. Algebra should be exchanged as a requirement for a different requirement like Geometry or something.
Geometry is harder than algebra. Hell algebra 1 is basically PEMDAS with problem solving until quadratics which usually aren't covered much in an entry level algebra course.Console war in a nutshell:
http://imgur.com/xA6GJZ9.pngJudgbolt posted...AndreLeGeant posted...
@Judgbolt I want people able to get jobs. I don't want to stop someone from being employable if they can't solve a quadratic equation. One can learn logic and critical thinking simply by going through life.
This is kind of an arbitrary example, but if you were to turn on the news today and you heard something along the lines of "the growth rate of our rat population is quadratic in nature" or "the change in acceleration is going to adversely affect what initial velocity can be", I think that as a random citizen living in the US, you should have enough of a general understanding of things to carry a normal conversation about it, or at least know enough to be able to read up on it and understand it.
Maybe Quadratic Equations in Algebra don't need to go up to complex numbers, maybe students should be allowed calculators to help with the computation part, but not teaching the concept at all, not requiring it to pass? That sounds like a bad idea. And if you can't solve regular quadratic equations with a calculator, how employable are you anyway?
No one says any of those things on the news.I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord SideousHonestly if it were up to me the high school curriculum would be streamlined. A good 25% of it would be cut out and teachers would have more time to ensure that students actually understand and apply a smaller amount of topics, rather than learn about complex solutions to quadratic equations. Hell, I'd have no problems with cutting out half of Algebra 2, moving that stuff to Pre-Calculus, and instead making the latter half of Algebra 2 an introductory course on hypothesis testing, P-Values, random variables, and probability distributions, but there aren't that many high school teachers qualified to teach that stuff so it's not happening anytime soon.
That said, I don't object to the learning of statistics, but my understanding is that most colleges are already OK with you not knowing Intermediate Algebra and instead taking another course to satisfy the requirement.Not changing this sig until the Knicks win the NBA Championship! Started...4/23/2011? Or was it 2010?AndreLeGeant posted...Angelblade posted...
It's not the algerbra.
It's the ability to learn algebra.
If you can't even pass high school level algrebra, then I don't want to hire you.
Not because you may need algebra for the job. But because you lack the either the drive or the ability to learn even the most basic critical thinking skills needed for algebra.
Romans and Greeks didn't have or use algebra.
They also didn't understand the concept of zero. Is this really the basis of your argument?The party's always better with Gordon FreeGin around.GordonFreeGin posted...AndreLeGeant posted...
Angelblade posted...
It's not the algerbra.
It's the ability to learn algebra.
If you can't even pass high school level algrebra, then I don't want to hire you.
Not because you may need algebra for the job. But because you lack the either the drive or the ability to learn even the most basic critical thinking skills needed for algebra.
Romans and Greeks didn't have or use algebra.
They also didn't understand the concept of zero. Is this really the basis of your argument?
The basis of the argument is one doesn't need to know how to solve problems algebraicly in order to be productive. We are talking about people trying to get through community college.I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord SideousAndreLeGeant posted...Judgbolt posted...
AndreLeGeant posted...
@Judgbolt I want people able to get jobs. I don't want to stop someone from being employable if they can't solve a quadratic equation. One can learn logic and critical thinking simply by going through life.
This is kind of an arbitrary example, but if you were to turn on the news today and you heard something along the lines of "the growth rate of our rat population is quadratic in nature" or "the change in acceleration is going to adversely affect what initial velocity can be", I think that as a random citizen living in the US, you should have enough of a general understanding of things to carry a normal conversation about it, or at least know enough to be able to read up on it and understand it.
Maybe Quadratic Equations in Algebra don't need to go up to complex numbers, maybe students should be allowed calculators to help with the computation part, but not teaching the concept at all, not requiring it to pass? That sounds like a bad idea. And if you can't solve regular quadratic equations with a calculator, how employable are you anyway?
No one says any of those things on the news.
Like I said, the example was arbitrary, but the point stands. I know for a fact that in my life time, I've used systems of equations to find break even points (stuff I was drawing, finances, cell phone plans work too), I've used knowledge of functions and logarithms to play out "what if" scenarios for mortgage and compound interest (more than just plug and chug), and I've used trig to make indirect measurements or make sure that I have a perfect right angle (if you like doing things in your house).
No, you are not constantly using math (sporadically if ever), but if you don't know any math, you wouldn't recognize any situations where math would have made your life better anyway.
Let's explore ways to better teach Algebra, and like others have said let's trim some of the fat for non-STEM majors, but let's not get rid of it. Education isn't necessarily about being practical; it's also about the learning."Not Impossible. Inevitable."AndreLeGeant posted...GordonFreeGin posted...
AndreLeGeant posted...
Angelblade posted...
It's not the algerbra.
It's the ability to learn algebra.
If you can't even pass high school level algrebra, then I don't want to hire you.
Not because you may need algebra for the job. But because you lack the either the drive or the ability to learn even the most basic critical thinking skills needed for algebra.
Romans and Greeks didn't have or use algebra.
They also didn't understand the concept of zero. Is this really the basis of your argument?
The basis of the argument is one doesn't need to know how to solve problems algebraicly in order to be productive.
in the Bronze age.Moustache twirling villian
http://i.imgur.com/uV2Wf1H.jpg- Kerbeywhy stop at making people study algebra for a degree that doesnt need algebra? why not make them learn keynesian economics and how to play the piano?Force feeding people the truth.SamCarlson posted...why stop at making people study algebra for a degree that doesnt need algebra? why not make them learn keynesian economics and how to play the piano?
Because problem solving is useful for everyone and that's basically all a beginner level algebra course is.Console war in a nutshell:
http://imgur.com/xA6GJZ9.pngPraetorXyn posted...SamCarlson posted...
why stop at making people study algebra for a degree that doesnt need algebra? why not make them learn keynesian economics and how to play the piano?
Because problem solving is useful for everyone and that's basically all a beginner level algebra course is.
so is economic knowledge and being able to play musicForce feeding people the truth.I think a lot of people did well in math and so want others to take it because they did it. But we are talking about people in community college. They are vying for a 2 year degree so they can get a job that realistically didn't require high school 20 years ago. You're willing to doom someone to being unemployable because they can't do quadratic equations that they will never use when they work their future job.I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord SideousSamCarlson posted...PraetorXyn posted...
SamCarlson posted...
why stop at making people study algebra for a degree that doesnt need algebra? why not make them learn keynesian economics and how to play the piano?
Because problem solving is useful for everyone and that's basically all a beginner level algebra course is.
so is economic knowledge and being able to play music
Economics is useful but not at the same level problem solving is. Music isn't "useful" for anyone not making money playing it, it's just fun.Console war in a nutshell:
http://imgur.com/xA6GJZ9.pngAndreLeGeant posted...I think a lot of people did well in math and so want others to take it because they did it. But we are talking about people in community college. They are vying for a 2 year degree so they can get a job that realistically didn't require high school 20 years ago. You're willing to doom someone to being unemployable because they can't do quadratic equations that they will never use when they work their future job.
You act like Algebra is a college level course. Calculus is, not Algebra. Algebra is typically taught in 8th or 9th grade.Console war in a nutshell:
http://imgur.com/xA6GJZ9.pngPraetorXyn posted...SamCarlson posted...
PraetorXyn posted...
SamCarlson posted...
why stop at making people study algebra for a degree that doesnt need algebra? why not make them learn keynesian economics and how to play the piano?
Because problem solving is useful for everyone and that's basically all a beginner level algebra course is.
so is economic knowledge and being able to play music
Economics is useful but not at the same level problem solving is. Music isn't "useful" for anyone not making money playing it, it's just fun.
how can you vote without knowing how the economy works? you dont need algebra to be an informed citizen but you do need economic knowledge.
and music is way more a part of most people's lives than algebra. your condescension doesnt change that. im not making money from algebra. or even using it in my personal life like i do music.Force feeding people the truth.(edited 1 day ago)quoteAlgebra should absolutely not be dropped, how they teach it however should be dropped. If people are too f***ing stupid to learn basics then they don't need a degree anyways, they just need to be fixed so they can't pollute the gene pool any more.The internet, where people come to be a dumbass.AndreLeGeant posted...I think a lot of people did well in math and so want others to take it because they did it. But we are talking about people in community college. They are vying for a 2 year degree so they can get a job that realistically didn't require high school 20 years ago. You're willing to doom someone to being unemployable because they can't do quadratic equations that they will never use when they work their future job.
You're assuming which is already wrong. Just the fact that I can say they could do quadratic equations in their future job invalidates your slippery slope argument. Maths is not that hard when it's easy. The base requirement for algebra is taught in grade school nowadays. I agree with you that this shouldn't be a barrier to enter a community school, because all that does is create barriers to knowledge, but then it damn well should be required to graduate community college. Be lucky geometry isn't required.The party's always better with Gordon FreeGin around.Again you are presuming that because something is taught to children it is easy. Some kids can code whereas some adults would struggle. If someone is going to community college to get a job that doesn't use algebra, I'm not dooming them to poverty for not being able to pass algebra.I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord SideousAndreLeGeant posted...Again you are presuming that because something is taught to children it is easy. Some kids can code whereas some adults would struggle. If someone is going to community college to get a job that doesn't use algebra, I'm not dooming them to poverty for not being able to pass algebra.
This is why we're drug down by the first two years of college rehashing things taught in high school.Console war in a nutshell:
http://imgur.com/xA6GJZ9.pngPraetorXyn posted...This is why we're drug down by the first two years of college rehashing things taught in high school.
ah yes, the problem is *those* idiots.Force feeding people the truth.yes, i know what you meant by using the wrong word. i didn't deny you a degree because of it.Force feeding people the truth.A grammatical error on a message board is clearly equivalent to being unable to pass a course you should have already passed once in order to obtain the high school diploma required for entering college where the course is offered.Console war in a nutshell:
http://imgur.com/xA6GJZ9.pngSo when PoC are increasingly unable to assume higher paying jobs (nearly all of which require knowledge of mathematics beyond algebra) will we start crying about the failed educational system which allowed them to graduate with only knowledge of macaroni and glue?
I do think there needs to be a vocational track in this country that prevents weaker students from trying to get to a diploma mill. And we figure out who should go to college by their ability to score well in classes like algebra.It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Rico, YOU know what to DO!PraetorXyn posted...A grammatical error on a message board is clearly equivalent
you are far more likely to write in a job than you are to use algebra
so no, it's more important.Force feeding people the truth.(edited 1 day ago)quoteWe live in a country where basic Algebra is considered difficult. Says a lot about the state of public education TBH.Sigless userSamCarlson posted...PraetorXyn posted...
A grammatical error on a message board is clearly equivalent
you are far more likely to write in a job than you are to use algebra
so no, it's more important.
They had to pass algebra to get into college anyway.Console war in a nutshell:
http://imgur.com/xA6GJZ9.pngHydraSlayer82 posted...We live in a country where basic Algebra is considered difficult. Says a lot about the state of public education TBH.
This. You have to pass algebra to graduate high school which is a requirement for attending college.Console war in a nutshell:
http://imgur.com/xA6GJZ9.pngPraetorXyn posted...They had to pass algebra to get into college anyway.
im assuming you had to pass english to get into college, tooForce feeding people the truth.-Kicksave- posted...So when PoC are increasingly unable to assume higher paying jobs (nearly all of which require knowledge of mathematics beyond algebra) will we start crying about the failed educational system which allowed them to graduate with only knowledge of macaroni and glue?
I do think there needs to be a vocational track in this country that prevents weaker students from trying to get to a diploma mill. And we figure out who should go to college by their ability to score well in classes like algebra.
I make a lot. I never use algebra. You're just making up that "nearly all" higher paying jobs require it. Moreover when you have a poverty epidemic I am more worried about getting impoverished people work than whether they can one day get better work. To say nothing of the fact that they'd likely forget algebra. I mean I did calculus but I've forgotten almost every bit of math I did beyond basic Algebra.I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord SideousPraetorXyn posted...SamCarlson posted...
PraetorXyn posted...
A grammatical error on a message board is clearly equivalent
you are far more likely to write in a job than you are to use algebra
so no, it's more important.
They had to pass algebra to get into college anyway.
Community college generally doesn't have entrance requirements. And many go back to college years after HS or barely pass a GED.
Math is foundational btw. So getting someone where they can pass algebra can be much harder than just taking algebra. It requires having the foundations first.
And again get of your high horse folks. This is community college. We are dealing with people who just want normal jobs that do not require intermediate algebraI don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideous"the best way to help poor people become rich is to prevent them from getting degrees that allow them to get decent paying jobs that can get them out of poverty".
logic like that must be why america has some of the best class mobility in the world!Force feeding people the truth.SamCarlson posted...PraetorXyn posted...
They had to pass algebra to get into college anyway.
im assuming you had to pass english to get into college, too
Yes, and I made a single mistake on an internet message board without spelling or grammar check which everyone who writes for a living has, and typing on a tablet to boot. Clearly my one mistake males me on the same level of intelligence as an adult unable to pass a course I took at age 13 despite my two Bachelor's degrees and one Master's degree. /sarcasmConsole war in a nutshell:
http://imgur.com/xA6GJZ9.png@PraetorXyn he's a troll. It's a new account if you'll notice. Most of us are on our phones. Some of us even dictate to our phones. No one cares if you make a typo.I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord SideousSamCarlson posted..."the best way to help poor people become rich is to prevent them from getting degrees that allow them to get decent paying jobs that can get them out of poverty".
logic like that must be why america has some of the best class mobility in the world!
How can you expect adults to possess the knowledge of a 13 year old? You monster!Console war in a nutshell:
http://imgur.com/xA6GJZ9.pngPraetorXyn posted...SamCarlson posted...
"the best way to help poor people become rich is to prevent them from getting degrees that allow them to get decent paying jobs that can get them out of poverty".
logic like that must be why america has some of the best class mobility in the world!
How can you expect adults to possess the knowledge of a 13 year old? You monster!
Age has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of things a 13 year old with more foundation in a subject can do better than an adult. You're also ignoring that many 13 year olds struggle at math. The issue is, do you doom someone to poverty because they can't pass a math subject that they will not use in the job for which they are going to school? If you say yes, you're either cruel or you're elitist.I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord SideousPraetorXyn posted...Yes, and I made a single mistake on an internet message board without spelling or grammar check
oh, you can use a machine?
someone should invent one of those for math!
(btw, a spell check probably wouldnt have worked because you didnt spell a word wrong, nor did you use an incorrect tense).
why should these people not get a degree, but an idiot like you can? why is the thing youre bad at unnecessary for every degree, but the thing theyre bad at is necessary? especially when the thing youre bad at is more ubiquitous.Force feeding people the truth.One thing colleges should drop as part of getting a degree is the foreign language requirement.
No one achieves profiency in a foreign language in the time a college requires students to take."Freedom was meaningless without ownership and control over one's own body" -Henry McNeal Turner
[Evil Republican] 3DS FC: 5429-7297-4842We talk about financial literacy a lot, don't we? About how there exist a lot of predatory loans out there with ridiculous interest rates?
Well...what do you need to know to have a decent grasp of the interested earned on an account? Why, intermediate algebra, of course...
And if intermediate algebra is the one *required* course you have to get, then if you enter community college, you have two years to learn it, don't you? And isn't it something you *usually* learn in high school?Not changing this sig until the Knicks win the NBA Championship! Started...4/23/2011? Or was it 2010?SSj4Wingzero posted...We talk about financial literacy a lot, don't we? About how there exist a lot of predatory loans out there with ridiculous interest rates?
Well...what do you need to know to have a decent grasp of the interested earned on an account? Why, intermediate algebra, of course...
And if intermediate algebra is the one *required* course you have to get, then if you enter community college, you have two years to learn it, don't you? And isn't it something you *usually* learn in high school?
You don't need intermediate algebra to understand interest. And the problem with predatory lending isn't that folks don't understand the terms. It's that they don't have a fairer choice for banking services and they have a more optimistic idea about their ability to repay.I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord Sideousmystic belmont posted...One thing colleges should drop as part of getting a degree is the foreign language requirement.
No one achieves profiency in a foreign language in the time a college requires students to take.
I'd really rather see that time used for core English mechanics, writing mechanics and speech.I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. I am your sXe hero.
They should build a mosque in mecca. Right next to the dome of the rock. -- Lord SideousHaving a standard is important; we should be graduating students who are generally well rounded and can think critically. Having a college degree require a math course originally taught in 8th grade is really not that much to ask for.
In doing so, we've been able to push groups of students beyond what they thought they were capable of, there is no denying that having an Algebra requirement lit a fire under some people and they ultimately passed even though they didn't think they could. That is a very beautiful thing I think, and one that absolutely needs to stay. And for those who didn't try, I don't really care what happens to them....
But there are students who fail Algebra because of ineffective teachers and professors, and there are students who struggle with math and would have a hard time passing Algebra even after putting in a fair amount of effort. I've seen them, they exist, perfectly normal people otherwise. I agree with lamano and others, we should not doom them to be unemployable. But removing Algebra is not the answer.
Now personally, I see no problems with passing a student who shows up for tutoring but still cannot get a passing grade You've had exposure to the material at least, you've tried your best, this is not your profession, so what's wrong with moving you along?
-Kicksave- posted...
I do think there needs to be a vocational track in this country that prevents weaker students from trying to get to a diploma mill. And we figure out who should go to college by their ability to score well in classes like algebra.
That's a good idea too...."Not Impossible. Inevitable."You don't need intermediate algebra to understand exponential growth which compounds over a long period of time?
Yeah, uh, okNot changing this sig until the Knicks win the NBA Championship! Started...4/23/2011? Or was it 2010?Predatory loans tend to be taken by people that are in a bind."Freedom was meaningless without ownership and control over one's own body" -Henry McNeal Turner
[Evil Republican] 3DS FC: 5429-7297-4842SSj4Wingzero posted...About how there exist a lot of predatory loans out there with ridiculous interest rates?
people dont take predatory loans because theyre bad at math. they take them because they dont have any option.
"oh, if only i had basic algebra skills i would have taken the much cheaper, non-predatory loan that was also being offered to me" - no one ever.
if you want to really battle predatory loans, don't artificially impede their ability to get a degree and a decent paying job so theyre less likely to be in a situation where a predator can prey on them and when they do need loans, normal banks are more likely to lend them.Force feeding people the truth.(edited 1 day ago)quoteSamCarlson posted...PraetorXyn posted...
Yes, and I made a single mistake on an internet message board without spelling or grammar check
oh, you can use a machine?
someone should invent one of those for math!
(btw, a spell check probably wouldnt have worked because you didnt spell a word wrong, nor did you use an incorrect tense).
why should these people not get a degree, but an idiot like you can? why is the thing youre bad at unnecessary for every degree, but the thing theyre bad at is necessary? especially when the thing youre bad at is more ubiquitous.
If you think a single grammar mistake makes a person an idiot you're undoubtedly an idiot, as there isn't anyone who never makes them. Hell I've read published novels with spelling and grammar errors the editors missed.Console war in a nutshell:
http://imgur.com/xA6GJZ9.png
