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- Is Super Mario 64 overrated?
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No. One of the first 3D platformers in a time when 3D games were rare. And it is STILL good when played today
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Yes. The camera controls don't hold up, there are too many vertical platforming segments where if you fall you have to replay half the level, and the system they used where you get thrown out of levels and have to collect lots of stars to progress is tedious.
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You have to think about the time the game was released.
A lot of games back then may have gained critical acclaim and won a lot of awards but don't hold up today. But you have to remember during the time it was first released, it was seen as amazing by the audience of that time.
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Very overrated, but I won't deny it ushered in 3D platforming and possibly 3D games as a whole. But the game itself is very ho hum and average. Just like every Mario game.
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Goldsickle posted...
You have to think about the time the game was released. Sure, but most of the issues come from design decisions rather than technical limitations.
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Not at all. It was an undeniably revolutionary and seminal game at the time of release, and thanks to its impeccable and tight controls, relatively open design, and the foresight to allow for the parkour-like ability to find and create new paths through levels and to your goals, it remains to this day one of the best games in a genre that it essentially created.
That kind of historical significance and contemporary relevance is a needle very few games have ever been able to thread. uffbulle posted... Sure, but most of the issues come from design decisions rather than technical limitations. Your issues seem to be that "there's platforming" and "you have to beat levels to proceed" tho >_>
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uffbulle posted...
Sure, but most of the issues come from design decisions rather than technical limitations. I agree that some things can be considered "outdated" but even so, the standards of the time it was released can affect how people perceive the game. It's like how Alien: Resurrection was one of the earliest games to release modern dual-analog stick shooting scheme on consoles, on the PS1, back in 2001. You'd think people will see it as "ahead of its time", except not. Some people back then see the game as having the "worse controls ever", including some reviewers here in GameFAQs. Ironic, since it's currently the modern standards for shooters today. It was developer decision to implement tank controls and the inability to walk and shoot in RE4 back in 2005. But standards for 3rd person shooters weren't fully established yet at the time, so RE4's control flaws are mostly overlooked and it became one of the most highly-rated games and won lots of awards.
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The standard of the time was a SMW-style platformer, which they didn't make. And it didn't have to be just like SMW but in 3D (come to think of it, the boss levels are kinda what that would be), but I really don't like the aspects I mentioned in comparison.
Well, I also don't care much for the first Tomb Raider. I did like Jedi Knight: Dark Forces 2 though, which is more of a TPS/FPS hybrid but can be played as TPS only and has lots of platforming and fast, fun physics. Lord illogical hawk posted... Your issues seem to be that "there's platforming" and "you have to beat levels to proceed" tho >_> Only if you can't read.
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Nah, it's still an incredible game. Infinite route possibilities, lots to master in the movement and platforming, and it's rewarding at any skill level. I've never had two playthroughs of SM64 that felt the same, and I've been playing the game since release date 1996.
Outside of tech aspects like the camera and early 3D graphics, people just like to nitpick about it a lot. The one thing I'd recommend is using a more modern controller... if you want to improve at this game, you will probably ruin the N64 control stick.
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Divine Tonberry posted...
the most influential 3D game of all time That would probably be Stunts, Ultima Underworld, Myst, Wing Commander or Wolfenstein 3D.
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uffbulle posted...
Divine Tonberry posted...the most influential 3D game of all time The only game you could reasonably argue is more influential than SM64 in that list is Wolfenstein.
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uffbulle posted...
The standard of the time was a SMW-style platformer, which they didn't make. And it didn't have to be just like SMW but in 3D (come to think of it, the boss levels are kinda what that would be), but I really don't like the aspects I mentioned in comparison. SMB1 was a linear series of levels that had a hidden option to skip between worlds. SMB3 was an essentially linear series of levels that allowed minor route choices between levels within a world, and had a secret option to skip between worlds. SMW had robust route options between levels within a world and between worlds, and had secret exits within levels to open those up. SM64's giving you extreme freedom to choose between worlds and the stars (or levels) within them always seemed like a pretty natural continuation and evolution of where the series had always been going. uffbulle posted... Lord illogical hawk posted...Your issues seem to be that "there's platforming" and "you have to beat levels to proceed" tho >_> "there are too many vertical platforming segments where if you fall you have to replay half the level" Oh no, there's platforming! Climbing things involves possibly falling off of things! But seriously, are you complaining about a lack of checkpoints? Most of the stars are already short and quick challenges. Where other than maybe Rainbow Road, the very end of the game and something you can skip entirely if you want, does failure involve some significant time loss? and the system they used where you get thrown out of levels and have to collect lots of stars to progress is tedious. Wait, you have to beat levels (stars) to proceed??? But maybe I'm being unfair and maybe I am reading this wrong. Maybe the emphasis is on the number of stars you have to collect to proceed. I'm not sure that wouldbe any better, as at any given point you only need a fraction of the stars available to proceed: You need one star from Bob-omb Battlefield to open Whomp's Fortress, and a grand total of three between the fourteen in the two of them to open Jolly Rodger Bay, Cool Cool Mountain, and some secret stars. With just eight of the over thirty you now have available you can clear Bowser and you'll suddenly have access to over 50. And by the time you need fifty to get to the third floor, you'll already have access to over one hundred! And on and on and on. At no point save for the final boss do you ever need more than half of the stars available. You could literally only play 8 of the 15 main worlds if you wanted. I'm not sure how any of that is gratuitous, so what exactly is the complaint? Because either way you slice it, it really sounds like you're just complaining about simply having to play the game. But yeah, the camera isn't great.
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Divine Tonberry posted...
If you think SM64 is overrated, what are you even doing? You cannot overrate the most influential 3D game of all time. Just because it's influential doesn't mean it gets a free pass. Second half of the game feels lazily designed. Camera controls (excusable though) and controlling Mario are not smooth. A couple other things as well. An influential game can be considered overrated.
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old-new72 posted...
Divine Tonberry posted...If you think SM64 is overrated, what are you even doing? You cannot overrate the most influential 3D game of all time. The only thing I agree with here is the camera. The 2nd half has some of the most creative design in the entire game, so I don't really understand calling it lazy. I also think it controls better than basically every 3D platformer ever, barring maybe Odyssey now.
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Lord illogical hawk posted...
a hidden option to skip between worlds. This is another thing that would've been nice to have in SM64 I think, or just a much lower collecting requirement. The focus on *forced* exploration and repeating parts of levels over and over thanks to getting kicked out of them creates a completely different experience to earlier games that I don't see as an evolution. Exploration-focused or maze platformers were more of a western thing before SM64 and I've always preferred more straightforward ones, unless it's more of an action adventure or arpg game. Yes, I guess checkpoints could've helped reduce some backtracking from failed jumps (or perhaps you could've been able to start from collected stars' locations). In previous games, nearly all levels were really short and very few were vertical, so it never became much of an issue even if you kinda sucked. And I can admit that I kinda suck at SM64. If I owned it back in 1996 and had spent more time with it I would proably like it a bit more, but you can make that argument about a lot of games that aren't still held in such high regard.
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Divine Tonberry posted...
old-new72 posted...Divine Tonberry posted...show hidden quote(s) Creative? That's rich, kid. It screams rush job and desperation to get something out for the launch. Banjo-Kazooie controls better than Mario 64. The countless imitators control better.
"Super Mario Kart has better 3D graphics than Saturn games." The cranky hermit
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old-new72 posted...
Divine Tonberry posted...old-new72 posted...show hidden quote(s) This is just not true. Banjo is so much more limited in his movement than Mario in 64. I love Banjo Kazooie, but in terms of playcontrol, this isn't even close. Can you articulate why you think the 2nd half of the game is lazier than the first?
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It suffers from bad camera at times, overuse of music and underwhelming bosses(You fight Bowser pretty much the same way three times in the game). The last two problems were things that never really left the series though for a while, unless you counted Yoshi's Island for the boss part.
I personally also dislike how Mario slides all over the place when he so much as steps on a curb, but that's probably just me. I respect the game, but there's a bunch of 3D platformers I prefer over it like Spyro and Banjo-Kazooie.
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Don't know, but it isn't close to being one of my favorite games.
As a guy that's only done a few casual playthroughs of the 64, I don't really get what some people mean when they say that Mario's movement is among the best of any game. imo Odyssey and Sunshine feel noticably better. |
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Divine Tonberry posted...
old-new72 posted...Nintendo Defense Force at its finest with Divine. Re-read the post if you can even read.
"Super Mario Kart has better 3D graphics than Saturn games." The cranky hermit
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old-new72 posted...
Divine Tonberry posted...old-new72 posted...show hidden quote(s) You said "Second half of the game feels lazily designed." and then you said "It screams rush job and desperation to get something out for the launch." both of which are entirely insubstantial comments. Neither statement describes why you think the 2nd half of the game is lazy, particularly, when compared to the first half. If you actually think this, it shouldn't be a hard position to qualify.
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@Divine_Tonberry
Says the guy who is trying any way to defend any major flaws Mario 64 had. You don't want to hear any criticism of it.
"Super Mario Kart has better 3D graphics than Saturn games." The cranky hermit
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I guess so? It's a game I appreciate a lot more than I actually like playing. It's probably the game with the coolest speedrunning scene and I've spent more time watching people do that than actually playing the game, but I don't really have it in me to master the movement mechanics in the game as I found them kind of unwieldy when I was playing the game just casually. It's an enormously influential game and moved the platforming genre forward in a really meaningful way but it's dwarfed in level design quality by all of the 3D Marios from Galaxy and onward. I didn't love it as a kid either so I don't think it's a "the later games did it better," sort of thing, I just think I don't really care for the sorts of qualities that M64 excels at.
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I think it's actually bordering a little on underrated these days. You can play it right now and still be like "whoa this is pretty great". Now realize it was released over 20 years ago, when not even a year before that most people were used to fuzzy 2D sprites that only moved in two directions. Mario 64 still holds the standard in a lot of 3D design and very little games since have pushed the envelope past where Mario 64 grandslammed it. But what I mainly see is people dismissing it as some ancient novelty or trying to call it "overrated"
Divine Tonberry posted... The only game you could reasonably argue is more influential than SM64 in that list is Wolfenstein. Which isn't even 3D lol |
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Hell no. It's still one of the greatest 3d platformers even competing against today's games...
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LaManoNeraII posted...
Now realize it was released over 20 years ago, SMB3 is 30 years old and a much better game overall. LaManoNeraII posted... people were used to fuzzy 2D sprites that only moved in two directions That's not true, and you'd have to have been pretty ignorant or young back then to say something like that. It was a technical step forward for 3D platformers though, along with Tomb Raider. I could also have mentioned Doom or Quake but Wolfenstein 3D certainly does apply.
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uffbulle posted...
I could also have mentioned Doom or Quake but Wolfenstein 3D certainly does apply. The only game in this sentence that's 3D is Quake, and it was released the same year as Mario 64 and required a PC that most people didn't have. Doom and Wolfenstein were 2D games that used "rotating" sprites. Super Nintendo had plenty of games like that |
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LaManoNeraII posted...
uffbulle posted...I could also have mentioned Doom or Quake but Wolfenstein 3D certainly does apply. Quake was a reason to get a PC. Same with Doom. Don't sell Doom and Wolfenstein short because their 3D was way better than SNES's mode 7, Nintendo fanboy.
"Super Mario Kart has better 3D graphics than Saturn games." The cranky hermit
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LaManoNeraII posted...
The only game in this sentence That's just your opinion though, they're generally considered 3D. No, SNES didn't have anything on par with those two games since the ports kinda sucked and the other mode 7 and 3D games aren't really comparable. But they do show that your comment about 2D sprites moving in two directions was bull and that you knew this, which begs the question - why'd you say such a stupid thing?
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uffbulle posted...
No, SNES didn't have anything on par with those two games since the ports kinda sucked and the other mode 7 and 3D games aren't really comparable. No, what I said is a fact. THIS is an opinon. "So SNES had games like these but they don't count because I think they don't" But they do show that your comment about 2D sprites moving in two directions was bull and that you knew this, which begs the question - why'd you say such a stupid thing? Did you not game back then? These psuedo-3D games were hardly a comparison when the real deal started to roll out with PS1 and N64. No one was like "bahhh I already played this before!" when they playing Mario 64 or Ocarina of Time lol |
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Completely depends on how likely it is that a new player will enjoy it if they played it for the first time today.
And from my experience, almost everyone who plays this game on a First-Time Playthrough (I refuse to call it a "Blind Playthrough", that name almost implies that they play it blindfolded) has ended up enjoying it a lot and even called it one of their new favourite games. "Super Mario 64" is a platformer done right in almost every way - the only thing that has aged noticeably is the graphics, but the vivid colours and the design still makes it look good. The controls are pretty much perfect (which is proven from the fact that pretty much all beginners learn them very well very quickly and never criticise them, except possibly the camera controls), the soundtrack still captivates new listeners, and the gameplay is straightforward and gives most of the gameplay information on signposts, instead of forcing the player to finish a bunch of dumbass tutorial missions. |
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The graphics don't need to be made of polygons for them to be 3D games, herby. Stop saying stupid shit.
LaManoNeraII posted... what I said is a fact. No, it isn't. And you never explained your assertions so obviously I don't need to explain mine. lmao I already mentioned several 3D games pre-Mario 64 before your stupid comment, then made you mention some more. You also said "in two directions" remember? So all pseudo games also count in response to that. LaManoNeraII posted... No one was like "bahhh I already played this before!" when they playing Mario 64 or Ocarina of Time lol Not that I ever said or implied that, but it's probably because they were playing PS1 and PC instead lolz Back to your original point though since you're trying hard to skip over this, people thought those games were cool because it was the next zelda and mario and they had some new ideas, not because "woooah 3D games man!!".
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- Is Super Mario 64 overrated?
- Boards
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- Is Super Mario 64 overrated?
While mode 7 gives sort of a 3d looking effect, it isn't really 3d. It's just using algebra to transform a 2D plane and the position of the cameraOfficial "Bako Ikporamee" of GameFAQs
http://i.imgur.com/U1Nhrnq.png^Yeah there's mode 7, what Wolf3D did, voxel graphics and vector graphics. There's also the older sprite scaling games.
There were steps of different lengths since the 70s leading up to fully 3D games and SM64, it didn't just pop out of nowhere one day.http://http://minirevver.weebly.com - Mini-reviews, romhacks, retro vgm tribute
http://www.favslist.com/users/Alianger/184/about/games/played - Played gamesuffbulle posted...^Yeah there's mode 7, what Wolf3D did, voxel graphics and vector graphics. There's also the older sprite scaling games.
There were steps of different lengths since the 70s leading up to fully 3D games and SM64, it didn't just pop out of nowhere one day.
No one said it pop out.
There is just different technologies, with different names.While it is true Super Mario 64 got flaws like camera control, I believe everything else the game is excellent.
Being able to explore the stages and the hub world nice touch, it is possible to skip stars if they know what to do and when playing another star mission the level changes. Every level is unique and interesting.
I still prefer Banjo-Kazooie but I enjoy Super Mario 64 playing it.http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/ dragon ball forum
http://midnighttavern.forumotion.com/ Must be over 18 years old to join.KCJ5062 posted...Something's always gonna be "overrated" to somebody.
Personally I think that a game cannot be objectively "overrated", because its popularity will depend on two factors:
how known it is to the public, and how much it impresses the players.
If a well-known game ends up being very popular, then it obviously has something that appeals to a lot of players.
Of course, there are some factors that could clearly make a game have an advantage;
for example, it makes sense that a game immediately becomes better if it has very easy and intuitive controls, because this means that a player doesn't have to feel frustrated about "bad controls".
And I am sure that there is a lot of science behind why certain music is loved and hated by most people;
for example, one reason why a chord change from C major to A minor tends to work very well is probably because those chords are closely related to each other
(C major uses the notes C, E and G, while A minor uses A,C and E, which are almost the same notes), so that chord change feels very relaxed - those chords even have the same key signature in sheet music.
This is one thing that Nobuo Uematsu does very well in the Final Fantasy games;
his melodies almost always have smooth chord changes that sound natural, and this probably makes his melodies more appealing to a lot of people.Herbette posted...No one said it pop out.
LaManoNeraII posted...not even a year before that most people were used to fuzzy 2D sprites that only moved in two directions.
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http://www.favslist.com/users/Alianger/184/about/games/played - Played gamesuffbulle posted...not even a year before that most people were used to fuzzy 2D sprites that only moved in two directions.
I didn't say "popped up out of nowhere"
I think you're just seeking attention at this point. I won't obligeYeah because the games mentioned before weren't mainstream hits or anything.
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http://www.favslist.com/users/Alianger/184/about/games/played - Played gamesuffbulle posted...Lord illogical hawk posted...
a hidden option to skip between worlds.
This is another thing that would've been nice to have in SM64 I think, or just a much lower collecting requirement.
But again, the 'collecting requirement' is already incredibly low. You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that the vast majority of my post detailed as much. At what point in the game do you think the requirements are too high, and what exactly do you propose they be instead?Back to your original point though since you're trying hard to skip over this, people thought those games were cool because it was the next zelda and mario and they had some new ideas, not because "woooah 3D games man!!".
That's incredibly revisionist history and easily disproven by simply looking at any of the reactions to the games when they came out or study of them since. They weren't the first games in 3D, but OoT's targeting system was a foundation development in 3D game design, and the acrobatic freedom of movement offered by SM64 allowed players to explore 3D spaces in ways no one had ever experienced before.America's Army SN: illogical hawk[GFs] ;37 Honor
*~*-=(C)=-GS SWAT:S.W.A.T. Wizard-=(C)=-*~*I simply didn't agree with that, and now you're ignoring most of my post so I guess we're even.
Lord illogical hawk posted...That's incredibly revisionist history
But his comment wasn't? Delusional.
I've said that SM64 was a technical step forward, and indeed the acrobatics are one of the better things about the game. See my site for a full (mini) review.
Lock-on had been done in Virtual On and Tomb Raider by then, maybe more (non-space shooter or flight sim) games than that. But it was done well in OoT, I'll give you that.http://http://minirevver.weebly.com - Mini-reviews, romhacks, retro vgm tribute
http://www.favslist.com/users/Alianger/184/about/games/played - Played gamesI didn't think it was overrated until Super Mario Odyssey came out. The backlash from the nostalgia crowd really surprised me.
I've always enjoyed Super Mario 64 for what it is. I have great memories of the game. I absolutely appreciate what the game was like at launch, because that's when I played it. I understand how important it was to the Mario franchise, the Nintendo 64, Nintendo in general, and the world of video games as a whole.
But it isn't the be-all, end-all Mario game. 3D or otherwise. Galaxy and Galaxy 2 proved you could do better. Then Super Mario Odyssey arrived. Meanwhile, Super Mario World upholds the quality award in the 2D department.
Super Mario 64 is a fantastic game that's perfectly enjoyable today. But it has some flaws, shows some signs of aging, and was surpassed in objective quality a long time ago.Currently playing: Ark, Vanquish and Resident Evil 5.So many innocuous things that people consider gigantic flaws. Aside from legit tech issues like camera and graphics, I mean. The idea that someone will die of boredom because they have to repeat 4 seconds of re-entering a level is just really funny to me. Also the first time I see someone complain that you have to jump on platforms again when you fall off.
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https://supermariomakerbookmark.nintendo.net/profile/Ren_DoodIt takes literally 15 seconds to swim to the other end of the level, and there are 2 Stars in the first area. But okay, that one part out of 120 Stars does suck. That level is almost totally optional, though, so yeah...
It's like people don't even know the game they're playing. You can pick your objectives, you don't have to do the one thing you hate.My Super Mario Maker levels ~
https://supermariomakerbookmark.nintendo.net/profile/Ren_DoodIlluminoius posted...it's more bizarre of people not to complain about dire dire docks making you do that long-ass fucking swim for almost every single mission
Why not just listen to the wonderful music and relax for a moment while you swim?
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