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- You shouldn't support or defend Antifa
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I'll preface by saying that the "both sides" s*** from this week should have never happened. The nazis should have been swiftly exclusively condemned and held solely accountable as not to undercut the condemnation of them. The nazis didn't "only" kill 1 person, 1 person just happened to die. Had he been in anything larger than the car he was in, it is very likely there would have been a significantly higher death toll. This neo-nazi, white supremacist bulls*** needs to be condemned, snuffed out, and isolated from any political significance.
The problem, however, is that THIS time, antifa were fighting literal nazis in the streets. That may not be the best way to combat them (it isn't), but in this situation, they were punching actual neo-nazis. The issue is that often their definition of who is and who isn't a neonazi can vary from day to day, from protest to protest, which leads to innocent people being assaulted and victimized by their violence, as we have seen over the past year. They are not infallible and are not always right in who they direct their violence toward. One dude was doxxed who had nothing at all to do with the rally and wasn't even there. Not only that, but as is the left's constant (and mostly accurate argument) against aggression against Islamic countries, the violence only further entrances neo-nazis in their victimization complex and radicalizes those on the fence. This is NOT how to defeat them, by giving them ammunition to add to their ranks. It furthers the divide. White supremacists absolutely took the cake last weekend and Antifa should not be lowered to their moral plane. But they are now seen in a heroic light, when there have been many instances lately of them using violence to further their cause whether or not it was warranted. The nazis being pieces of s*** who deserved a fight does not erase any of that. This week wasn't the time for Trump to lash out at them, not by a long f***ing shot, and he f***ed up an opportunity to be a good leader, but let's not pretend that Antifa is some heroic, noble organization. There are plenty who are peacefully trying to get things done and plenty going through political channels to stop the spread of the despicable alt-right, but there is also a large group of them who loosely define their enemies to justify attacking innocent people. That shouldn't be accepted or redefined simply because the neo-nazis are worse. Hate from all sides and violence from all sides should absolutely be condemned. Nazis and that piece of s*** in the car should be exclusively condemned and considered at fault for this weekend, but that does not change that hate and violence from all corners needs to give way to more peaceful, alternative means of resolution. Nazi violence toward antifa last weekend didn't result in any fewer antifa (from an ideology standpoint). Antifa violence didn't result in any fewer neo-nazis. In fact, both groups probably added to their numbers in the aftermath, and that is NOT the way it should be. |
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iosifsvoboda posted...
Ww2 taught me that you don't bargain with nazis you punch their asses out and then they cry averagejoel posted... there is no peaceful resolution against nazis. they need to be crushed This is the problem. It has been demonstrated over the last year that many non-nazis have been the victims of antifa violence and other tactics. That's what happens when you give them the power to determine who should be shut down and who shouldn't. You're leaving it up to their fallible discretion to dictate who is and isn't worthy of their violence. Will that often include actual nazis? Sure, as we saw this weekend. But it will also often not. And that is absolutely a problem you shouldn't be okay with. There are better ways to achieve the goal they are wanting to achieve. |
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_RETS_ posted...
iosifsvoboda posted... how are you suggesting fascism be eradicated then?
peanut butter and dick
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There are plenty of people in this country who are happy to stand against Nazis with you. You don't need to ally yourself with people who show up in masks and use violence, property destruction, etc. to shut down speech they don't like.
"If the day does not require an AK, it is good." The Great Warrior Poet, Ice Cube
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averagejoel posted...
_RETS_ posted... Not acting like fascist yourself would be a good start
One bourbon,one scotch,one beer
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Antifa is literally communist plus they are very violent they do Nazi s*** them themselves.
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-39004753 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40930831
America will never fall to liberals or communist invasion!
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iosifsvoboda posted...
Ww2 taught me that you don't bargain with nazis you punch their asses out and then they cry WW2 taught me that Nazis and Communists both commit awful atrocities, and that one should stand strong against both. |
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averagejoel posted...
_RETS_ posted... Through political means. Using violence against Nazis in WW2 was necessary because they were a massive militarized force with full government backing because they were the government. As awful as this last weekend was, the alt-right is a vast minority of conservatives. More violence is not going to stamp them out, just like more violence in the ME continues to radicalize. It will only fuel the victim complex that they have dedicated their pitiful lives to and lead to further violence. There is a path to resolution that doesn't require both sides to continue to be violent. But you are completely missing the point. If the violence was being directed exclusively toward neo-nazis, then there would be a better case for it. But there is precedent of their misdirected aggression victimizing those who do not fall in that category. Giving a movement that authority and support to determine who should and shouldn't receive their violence is a mistake because as we have often seen, they will paint with a broad brush to justify violence against anyone who doesn't share their every view. And what is that, if not fascism? |
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TheMikh posted...
iosifsvoboda posted...
America will never fall to liberals or communist invasion!
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Antifa basically wants to be a civilian secret police force. For all their talk about 'fighting for the people' or whatever they want to call it, they are an authoritarian's wet dream.
The easiest way to subvert a free society with rules to keep government power in check is to simply turn the people against eachother. As has been noted in the past, the government can't silence your free speech. But prodded along by media narratives convincing them that it's their righteous duty, and that they are fighting the enemy, your fellow citizens can. It's never been more true: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
PSN VectorChaos http://i.imgur.com/ftMERkZ.jpg XBL Vector Chaos
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Anitfa are worse then Neo-Nazis. Antifa are a terrorist group seeking to undermine the Constitution. It is our legal right to protest, to assemble but, Antifa say they don't like that so they assault us. How long before they start murdering us? The alt-right, Neo Nazis, and White supremacists advocate peace. We do it peacefully but, we're still assaulted by thugs. So no, we're not worse then you or equal. You are defending a terrorist organization. Your opinion is wrong.
Proud Communist
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Skasa posted...
Anitfa are worse then Neo-Nazis. Antifa are a terrorist group seeking to undermine the Constitution. It is our legal right to protest, to assemble but, Antifa say they don't like that so they assault us. How long before they start murdering us? The alt-right, Neo Nazis, and White supremacists advocate peace. We do it peacefully but, we're still assaulted by thugs. So no, we're not worse then you or equal. You are defending a terrorist organization. Your opinion is wrong. Tagged appropriately.
Gavirulax
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-Gavirulax- posted...
appropriately No, at least I admit my views. Am I right? No, and I don't like to associate with them but, I don't hide my views. The first amendment says we can protest, we can say whatever want. That is fact and you can never dispute that. We do not advocate violence.
Proud Communist
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Skasa posted...
-Gavirulax- posted... So as a neo-nazi,what exactly is your end-game? And why align with neo-nazis to achieve that end-game? Note, you are admitting to this. I'm not accusing you of being a neo-nazi because you don't agree with me |
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Skasa posted...
No, at least I admit my views. Am I right? No, and I don't like to associate with them but, I don't hide my views. The first amendment says we can protest, we can say whatever want. That is fact and you can never dispute that. We do not advocate violence. You're right, I don't dispute that. I said appropriately because you flat out admitted it. Edit: Also I have no issue at all with peaceful protests, no matter what it is about.
Gavirulax
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I do not support every single thing they do, but I will absolutely support them being around, because one of the things they do is protect the more peaceful counterprotestors from being intimidated by those on the far right who are quite obviously looking to intimidate (unless you think the weapons and armor are just there for "defense").
The sea was angry that day, my friends. Like an old man trying to send back soup at a deli.
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TheMikh posted...
WW2 taught me that Nazis and Communists both commit awful atrocities, and that one should stand strong against both. Who says antifa is communist? I understand where you're coming from, but the ideologies of antifa are much more loose than that of the neo-nazis. The reason I don't give antifa as much flack is because they seem to be a reactionary movement against these extremist bigoted ideas. Were it not for the people calling for the removal of immigrants, racial purity, or any other nonsense, then antifa wouldn't exist. Do they mess up and attack people who aren't fascists? Yeah they do and that should be condemned, but when there are nazis marching in the streets with blunt instruments and tiki torches, sorry, but I want an opposing force there confronting them.
Gt: justaguy3492
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This is why americans are such a joke, f***ing lol.
^This is what a 313 Feminist Gang member looks like
http://imgur.com/udfhqN6 |
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You can't compromise with f***ing Nazi's or white supremacists they don't want any minorities in the country period.
Segregation or extermination is there goal that's why no one feels pity for them when violence is met against them it's a hate group.
PSN: Adrian396
XBL: Prime Legacy Nintendo ID: Apocalypse |
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Skasa posted...
Anitfa are worse then Neo-Nazis. Antifa are a terrorist group seeking to undermine the Constitution. It is our legal right to protest, to assemble but, Antifa say they don't like that so they assault us. How long before they start murdering us? The alt-right, Neo Nazis, and White supremacists advocate peace. We do it peacefully but, we're still assaulted by thugs. So no, we're not worse then you or equal. You are defending a terrorist organization. Your opinion is wrong. How do you feel they will achieve their goals in a peaceful manner?
N/A
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justaguy3492 posted...
TheMikh posted... Absolutely, but you are giving a group the authority to determine the conditions. This time they were right. They are often wrong. And that is not something to be accepted or upheld as noble. And if they are a reactionary effect, it can be assumed that the alt-right will also see reactionary growth. There is no perfect way to stop all of this s***, but violence is far from the top of the list. The alt-right, for the most part, is an impotent minority. This past weekend doesn't change that but because of this past weekend, the minority got a little bigger. They've been condemned from both sides of the aisle, which is a good thing. And if both sides are working on a solution, then that is a step in the right direction. But having what are essentially vigilantes going after who they think deserve it (again, them being right in this case is irrelevant), undermines any legitimate effort to snuff out the problem. Pretty much everyone can agree that there is nothing more unamerican than supporting Nazism. In fact, the country was last at its best and most unified when we were joining forces to eliminate them in WW2*. The vast, vast majority of people agree they should be dealt with. But having a radical, reactionary faction attacking them is not the way to do it because when they are wrong it strengthens the opposition. *obviously from a civil rights standpoint we had a long way to go, but in terms of unity for a cause the country was at its best |
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I keep seeing people make comparisons to pre-WWII appeasement.
I wasn't aware that American Neo-nazis were seizing territory and invading other nations with a government backed military.
PSN VectorChaos http://i.imgur.com/ftMERkZ.jpg XBL Vector Chaos
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apocalyptic_4 posted...
You can't compromise with f***ing Nazi's or white supremacists they don't want any minorities in the country period. You are missing the entire point. They don't deserve pity and no one is suggesting they do. |
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Skasa posted...
The alt-right, Neo Nazis, and White supremacists advocate peace. I'm definitely on CE. |
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Presumably the endgame is no neonazis, right? It is not an organized, government force that could be brought to a definitive end like it was in the 30s-40s. It is an ideology.
So if the outcome is fewer, but violence further entrenches them and radicalizes those on the fence, thus adding to their numbers, then this vigilante violence runs counter to the desired outcome. The goal is noble, the means are counterproductive. |
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_RETS_ posted...
Through political means. Using violence against Nazis in WW2 was necessary because they were a massive militarized force with full government backing because they were the government. As awful as this last weekend was, the alt-right is a vast minority of conservatives. More violence is not going to stamp them out, just like more violence in the ME continues to radicalize. It will only fuel the victim complex that they have dedicated their pitiful lives to and lead to further violence. There is a path to resolution that doesn't require both sides to continue to be violent. It's a tough one, because obviously you don't want it to get to the stage where neo-Nazis are anywhere near government or are otherwise in a position to spread or put into action their ideology. In the early days of Hitler trying to obtain power, he and his cronies were a "vast minority" also, and we all know how that went. People may think it couldn't happen in the US (and hopefully they're right), but underestimate that level of hatred at your peril. I absolutely agree that going on the offensive can easily backfire and drag in people who aren't neo-Nazis, and I condemn anyone who does that. I do, however, support counter-protesting at neo-Nazi rallies, peacefully if at all possible, and confronting these views head-on. Attacking them is wrong, and any violence should only be in self-defence, as much of it was (although some admittedly wasn't). It's a fine line, but they should certainly be kept in check IMO. Let them protest, but let those that want to confront their ideology do so as well (at those same rallies). |
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_RETS_ posted...
So if the outcome is fewer, but violence further entrenches them and radicalizes those on the fence, thus adding to their numbers, then this vigilante violence runs counter to the desired outcome. I don't think the events of the past week have been good for the white supremacist cause. Forcing a confrontation has shined a spotlight on these people that they seem very uncomfortable with.
kin to all that throbs
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Antifar posted...
_RETS_ posted... Sure, but if you are supporting a group that, thought this time was right, has a history of being wrong, then that leeway can swing wildly off the rails and turn into another very ugly and formidable enemy. That is why violence and hatred from either side of extremism should not be tolerated. I do agree though that that should have been left out of this week's presidential statements as to not deflate the condemnation of neo-nazi actions and ideology. Additionally, sure there are ones who are uncomfortable with being doxxed. But Im almost certain there are many more that are more firmly entrenched in their ways and others who were further radicalized. |
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VectorChaos posted...
I keep seeing people make comparisons to pre-WWII appeasement. The point is, that didn't happen overnight. It gradually happened over a number of years (decades even) and snowballed. As mentioned above, Hitler only had a handful of supporters early on, but through careful manoeuvring, that grew massively. Again though, I condemn violence (unless out of genuine self-defence). Still, don't underestimate how things could progress. Thankfully, the chances are that they won't go that far (especially given the knowledge of what has gone before), but you have to be vigilant. |
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luigi13579 posted...
VectorChaos posted... It is also very different times though. The internet and how thoroughly interconnected the entire world is now would make it very hard for something insidious like that to happen without there being oppositionand outrage much earlier on |
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_RETS_ posted...
The internet and how thoroughly interconnected the entire world is now would make it very hard for something insidious like that to happen without there being oppositionand outrage much earlier on There's opposition and outrage right now. How are you responding?
kin to all that throbs
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Antifar posted...
_RETS_ posted... What do you mean? |
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_RETS_ posted...
It is also very different times though. The internet and how thoroughly interconnected the entire world is now would make it very hard for something insidious like that to happen without there being oppositionand outrage much earlier on You're probably right. The internet is a powerful propaganda tool that can be used for the opposite purpose though. The difference is that no one group controls it, at least at the moment. Although there are powerful corporations that control large parts of it (and governments can get their tentacles into it too). |
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_RETS_ posted...
luigi13579 posted... We're also not in the position Germany was in when Hitler began rising to power. The Treaty of Versailles' effects on Germany after WWI are why he was able to do what he did.
PSN VectorChaos http://i.imgur.com/ftMERkZ.jpg XBL Vector Chaos
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- Boards
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- You shouldn't support or defend Antifa
- Boards
- Current Events
- You shouldn't support or defend Antifa
Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, Gas Chambers, Ovens, the deaths of MILLIONS and the sacrifices of countless lives fighting one of the worst legitimate Evils in the history of all mankind makes this the least slippery slope in existence. Humanity drew a line and that s*** doesn't get to be a "belief". There's no conundrum here.
Let's not ever forget what Nazis f***ing are. Do not normalize them, ever. Do not brush aside their insanity and monstrosity as simply a "different opinion" or "political belief" ever.
Now Watching: Rome
Now Playing: Fallout 4 for the Xth timeAntifar posted...
_RETS_ posted...
What do you mean?
Have you considered that antifa is what the opposition and outrage to a neo-Nazi movement looks like?
Yes. But you're not being fully honest. Antifa is what AN opposition looks like. Not THE opposition. But they are also often wrong. Giving them the support and flexibility to discern who should and shouldn't have violence directed toward them is a mistake. There are better means by which to achieve their desired outcome, especially since it is an overwhelmingly majority and bipartisan opinion that neo-nazis should f*** offCurzonDax posted...
Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, Gas Chambers, Ovens, the deaths of MILLIONS and the sacrifices of countless lives fighting one of the worst legitimate Evils in the history of all mankind makes this the least slippery slope in existence. Humanity drew a line and that s*** doesn't get to be a "belief". There's no conundrum here.
Let's not ever forget what Nazis f***ing are. Do not normalize them, ever. Do not brush aside their insanity and monstrosity as simply a "different opinion" or "political belief" ever.
Literally no one is doing that._RETS_ posted...
CurzonDax posted...
Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, Gas Chambers, Ovens, the deaths of MILLIONS and the sacrifices of countless lives fighting one of the worst legitimate Evils in the history of all mankind makes this the least slippery slope in existence. Humanity drew a line and that s*** doesn't get to be a "belief". There's no conundrum here.
Let's not ever forget what Nazis f***ing are. Do not normalize them, ever. Do not brush aside their insanity and monstrosity as simply a "different opinion" or "political belief" ever.
Literally no one is doing that.
So the Neo-nazis f***s aren't saying any of that? They're just silently protesting? I guess all those threats and screams about making America White were just my imagination. By giving them a voice outlet you're telling them its ok to have those views. They should not be allowed to protest. Ban them, protest them as well.
Now Watching: Rome
Now Playing: Fallout 4 for the Xth timeCurzonDax posted...
Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, Gas Chambers, Ovens, the deaths of MILLIONS and the sacrifices of countless lives fighting one of the worst legitimate Evils in the history of all mankind makes this the least slippery slope in existence. Humanity drew a line and that s*** doesn't get to be a "belief". There's no conundrum here.
Let's not ever forget what Nazis f***ing are. Do not normalize them, ever. Do not brush aside their insanity and monstrosity as simply a "different opinion" or "political belief" ever.
That's nice. You know neo-Nazis are the not the same group, right?
- The AdmiralCurzonDax posted...
_RETS_ posted...
CurzonDax posted...
Genocide, Ethnic Cleansing, Gas Chambers, Ovens, the deaths of MILLIONS and the sacrifices of countless lives fighting one of the worst legitimate Evils in the history of all mankind makes this the least slippery slope in existence. Humanity drew a line and that s*** doesn't get to be a "belief". There's no conundrum here.
Let's not ever forget what Nazis f***ing are. Do not normalize them, ever. Do not brush aside their insanity and monstrosity as simply a "different opinion" or "political belief" ever.
Literally no one is doing that.
So the Neo-nazis f***s aren't saying any of that? They're just silently protesting? I guess all those threats and screams about making America White were just my imagination. By giving them a voice outlet you're telling them its ok to have those views. They should not be allowed to protest. Ban them, protest them as well.
My mistake, i thought you were referring to anyone in this topic.
I agree, they shouldn't be given a voice and they should be protested. But not violently confronted by vigilantes. That moves things further from the goal that pretty much the entire country wants to achieve._RETS_ posted...
It is also very different times though. The internet and how thoroughly interconnected the entire world is now would make it very hard for something insidious like that to happen without there being oppositionand outrage much earlier on
You're probably right. The internet is a powerful propaganda tool that can be used for the opposite purpose though. The difference is that no one group controls it, at least at the moment. Although there are powerful corporations that control large parts of it (and governments can get their tentacles into it too).
The other relatively comforting thing is that Hitler was a bit of a special case. He knew how to keep his more insidious opinions to himself early on and was a great orator, among other things. Although, fascism did rise in other countries like Italy and Spain.
VectorChaos posted...
We're also not in the position Germany was in when Hitler began rising to power.
The Treaty of Versailles' effects on Germany after WWI are why he was able to do what he did.
True. Another Wall Street crash type event coupled with the rise of automation and potential mass job losses could be a catalyst though.
But yeah, it'd probably take a combination of many large events like that for things to get that bad. Even then, there were a variety of factors that allowed fascism to rise beyond just the economy, so the chances of it happening are pretty low admittedly.Skasa posted...
Anitfa are worse then Neo-Nazis. Antifa are a terrorist group seeking to undermine the Constitution. It is our legal right to protest, to assemble but, Antifa say they don't like that so they assault us. How long before they start murdering us? The alt-right, Neo Nazis, and White supremacists advocate peace. We do it peacefully but, we're still assaulted by thugs. So no, we're not worse then you or equal. You are defending a terrorist organization. Your opinion is wrong.
How can you be a Neo-Nazi/white supremacist and also a "proud communist"?luigi13579 posted...
_RETS_ posted...
Through political means. Using violence against Nazis in WW2 was necessary because they were a massive militarized force with full government backing because they were the government. As awful as this last weekend was, the alt-right is a vast minority of conservatives. More violence is not going to stamp them out, just like more violence in the ME continues to radicalize. It will only fuel the victim complex that they have dedicated their pitiful lives to and lead to further violence. There is a path to resolution that doesn't require both sides to continue to be violent.
But you are completely missing the point. If the violence was being directed exclusively toward neo-nazis, then there would be a better case for it. But there is precedent of their misdirected aggression victimizing those who do not fall in that category. Giving a movement that authority and support to determine who should and shouldn't receive their violence is a mistake because as we have often seen, they will paint with a broad brush to justify violence against anyone who doesn't share their every view. And what is that, if not fascism?
It's a tough one, because obviously you don't want it to get to the stage where neo-Nazis are anywhere near government or are otherwise in a position to spread or put into action their ideology. In the early days of Hitler trying to obtain power, he and his cronies were a "vast minority" also, and we all know how that went. People may think it couldn't happen in the US (and hopefully they're right), but underestimate that level of hatred at your peril.
I absolutely agree that going on the offensive can easily backfire and drag in people who aren't neo-Nazis, and I condemn anyone who does that.
I do, however, support counter-protesting at neo-Nazi rallies, peacefully if at all possible, and confronting these views head-on. Attacking them is wrong, and any violence should only be in self-defence, as much of it was (although some admittedly wasn't). It's a fine line, but they should certainly be kept in check IMO. Let them protest, but let those that want to confront their ideology do so as well (at those same rallies).
Overlooked this post. I agree. I absolutely think their platform should be challenged and their infringing ideology stamped out. The vast, vast majority of the country agrees with that.NeoShadowhen posted...
I remember the greatest generation storming the beaches of Normandy, sucker punching nazis, and running away.
Maybe they were the ones starting the confrontation? Did you ever think of that? They clearly didn't have any permits to be there.
Fire Billy Davis
http://myanimelist.net/animelist/NinjaWarrior457luigi13579 posted...
_RETS_ posted...
Through political means. Using violence against Nazis in WW2 was necessary because they were a massive militarized force with full government backing because they were the government. As awful as this last weekend was, the alt-right is a vast minority of conservatives. More violence is not going to stamp them out, just like more violence in the ME continues to radicalize. It will only fuel the victim complex that they have dedicated their pitiful lives to and lead to further violence. There is a path to resolution that doesn't require both sides to continue to be violent.
But you are completely missing the point. If the violence was being directed exclusively toward neo-nazis, then there would be a better case for it. But there is precedent of their misdirected aggression victimizing those who do not fall in that category. Giving a movement that authority and support to determine who should and shouldn't receive their violence is a mistake because as we have often seen, they will paint with a broad brush to justify violence against anyone who doesn't share their every view. And what is that, if not fascism?
It's a tough one, because obviously you don't want it to get to the stage where neo-Nazis are anywhere near government or are otherwise in a position to spread or put into action their ideology. In the early days of Hitler trying to obtain power, he and his cronies were a "vast minority" also, and we all know how that went. People may think it couldn't happen in the US (and hopefully they're right), but underestimate that level of hatred at your peril.
I absolutely agree that going on the offensive can easily backfire and drag in people who aren't neo-Nazis, and I condemn anyone who does that.
I do, however, support counter-protesting at neo-Nazi rallies, peacefully if at all possible, and confronting these views head-on. Attacking them is wrong, and any violence should only be in self-defence, as much of it was (although some admittedly wasn't). It's a fine line, but they should certainly be kept in check IMO. Let them protest, but let those that want to confront their ideology do so as well (at those same rallies).
I think confronting at the same rally is a deadly mistake as seen last week...VectorChaos posted...
_RETS_ posted...
luigi13579 posted...
VectorChaos posted...
I keep seeing people make comparisons to pre-WWII appeasement.
I wasn't aware that American Neo-nazis were seizing territory and invading other nations with a government backed military.
The point is, that didn't happen overnight. It gradually happened over a number of years (decades even) and snowballed. As mentioned above, Hitler only had a handful of supporters early on, but through careful manoeuvring, that grew massively.
Again though, I condemn violence (unless out of genuine self-defence). Still, don't underestimate how things could progress. Thankfully, the chances are that they won't go that far (especially given the knowledge of what has gone before), but you have to be vigilant.
It is also very different times though. The internet and how thoroughly interconnected the entire world is now would make it very hard for something insidious like that to happen without there being oppositionand outrage much earlier on
We're also not in the position Germany was in when Hitler began rising to power.
The Treaty of Versailles' effects on Germany after WWI are why he was able to do what he did.
Stop spreading this meme
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