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- Nintendo's frustrations with 3D Mario (Interview before Odyssey development)
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This is a pretty funny article to read in hindsight.
https://dromble.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/nintendos-frustrations-with-3d-mario/ I know it's by everyone's favorite liar Emily Rogers but I think it's still worth a peek. I'll pick out some interesting things. “Super Mario 64, which Koizumi-san was a part of the development team, was a game that was praised highly. But at the same time, it created a group of players that felt 3D games were too difficult for them,” said Satoru Iwata. Later in the interview, Iwata adds the following, “Wandering all around provides a lot of freedom but carries with it the problem of not knowing where to go and getting lost. In a 2D Super Mario game, you just keep going toward the right and the goal pole is sure to be there. You don’t have to worry about whether you should keep heading in a certain direction.” Still won't ever understand how getting lost = too difficult. Getting lost is just getting lost, lol. Wonder how these type of people would feel about a game like BOTW? In 2003, Shigeru Miyamoto was being interviewed about his game “Super Mario Sunshine,” the sequel to Super Mario 64. One of the goals behind the game was to fix the issues with Super Mario 64’s camera system by giving players more ways to control the camera. During the interview, Miyamoto was asked why Mario Sunshine didn’t sell well, and Shigeru Miyamoto explained that creating deeper, more complex sequels to Super Mario 64 shrinks the audience for Mario games. The lukewarm reception from the mass media toward “Sunshine” would change the direction of future 3D Mario games. Explains why we were starved for an open Mario game so long. I guess their view on this has changed since then? Miyamoto continued, “One thing that has hurt the Mario games…Taking them into 3D, while it has expanded the worlds, has shrunk the user base. By going into 3D, the games have become more complicated. Before that, the Mario games were the type of thing that anybody could pick up and play very easily. By going into the 3D world, we have limited who that game is accessible to. After Super Mario 64, making a game that those 3D Mario fans can enjoy further requires shrinking the audience even more because you need to go more in depth. What we did with Mario Sunshine to make it more accessible is that we tried to create it so that you could control the camera any way that you wanted it. That was how we started development on the game.” This is really, really ironic considering the Switch's first Mario game is one that might only appeal to a "shrunken user base". They are taking a huge risk here if they still believe that these types of games have a more limited audience. “I think there may an impression that Mario 3D Land did well, so that’s why we decided to bring that to Wii U. But, in fact, what we really try to do is look at, “What is the easiest way for people to play the Mario games?” And certainly we have the new Super Mario Bros. series, which is the new side-scrolling games, and those are particularly easy to play for people who are more novice gamers,” said Miyamoto. You’ve got four-player multiplayer. And then we have games like the Galaxy series.” Seems strange that they would differentiate the Galaxy series from the 3D Land games and then later on make an infographic stating that they are the same style. Well, just my two sense, happy reading! |
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It makes sense to me.
A lot of younger players and non gamers are really f***ing horrible at playing games. 2D Mario is indeed simpler for them to pick up and play compared to Sunshine, 64, Galaxy or even 3D Land.
I'm Mary Poppins y'all.
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Trippotato posted...
Don't understand the whole getting lost equals difficulty thing either, I predict Odyssey will be a pretty easy game, aside from maybe some final level like Champion's Road or some collectathon s***. Some parts of the game already looks hard from the gameplay footages
Luigi could be in Super Mario Odyssey --> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j6fkHQb5l2w
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Trippotato posted...
Don't understand the whole getting lost equals difficulty thing either, I predict Odyssey will be a pretty easy game, aside from maybe some final level like Champion's Road or some collectathon s***. Perhaps it can be overwhelming for people who never played a 3D game before. Which, at that time, was not uncommon.
I'm trolling the Nintendo Switch board almost exclusively now - N_Guy_N exposing himself
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Megaman Omega posted...
Trippotato posted...Don't understand the whole getting lost equals difficulty thing either, I predict Odyssey will be a pretty easy game, aside from maybe some final level like Champion's Road or some collectathon s***. I guess at the time of 64's release that would have made sense. But look at times now, kids are most into COD, Minecraft, etc. all 3D games. |
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SupooperMario4 posted...
“Super Mario 64, which Koizumi-san was a part of the development team, was a game that was praised highly. But at the same time, it created a group of players that felt 3D games were too difficult for them,” said Satoru Iwata. Later in the interview, Iwata adds the following, “Wandering all around provides a lot of freedom but carries with it the problem of not knowing where to go and getting lost. In a 2D Super Mario game, you just keep going toward the right and the goal pole is sure to be there. You don’t have to worry about whether you should keep heading in a certain direction.” Imagine these people playing a Metroid game.
Favorite series: Tales Of, Valkyria Chronicles, Trails of Cold Steel, Corpse Party, God Eater, Resident Evil
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Anclation posted...
I suspect that the success of Breath of the Wild will make Nintendo reexamine a lot of assumptions they made about what constitutes "too much freedom" and what makes a game "over complicated", The difference is in that something like Mario 64, you're given a goal with a single hint on what you're actually supposed to do, ranging from cryptic to obvious In Breath of the Wild, your only goal is to go to the castle and beat Ganon. Everything else is entirely optional, nothing is gated off, you can do anything at all It's hard to get lost in a game about getting lost |
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Sad to say but I think they are really over analyzing the reason Sunshine didn't sell.
First the GameCube wasn't very popular for it's time. Second, at least at the time, Mario with a water pack just seemed completely stupid and childish. Third, in some ways it probably competed with Luigi's Mansion. My second and third reasons are why I skipped it at the time. I may some day go back and play it though for a few reasons.
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First of all, who you're calling Emily a liar? She even gotten out of that game because she was tired ignored having to prove her worth.
Second.....umm....huh. EDIT: Oh right, I first found about Emily through her "A Dolphin's Tale" article, which are the sort of articles she wrote that what attracted me to her in the first place. (Side note: It's actually a really enlightening article; look it up if you got the time.). So why are you discrediting her by calling her a "liar"?
7 is good. I swear the school's 75-100 grading scale has ruined peoples perception of things.
-MillionGunmannn |
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Quesker posted...
First of all, who you're calling Emily a liar? she might not necessarily be a liar but everything she says ends up wrong |
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Mozzezz posted...
Sad to say but I think they are really over analyzing the reason Sunshine didn't sell. Agreed - when considering both how the GameCube sold significantly less than the N64, and how Sunshine unlike Mario 64 wasn't a launch game, Sunshine did decently compared to Mario 64. That said, didn't both Melee and Double Dash outsell it? Nintendo might be thinking about it in that context too, since Mario 64 was easily the best-selling N64 game.
Yeah... Sorry.
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Mozzezz posted...
Sad to say but I think they are really over analyzing the reason Sunshine didn't sell. Sunshine is one of my favorite 3D Mario games, but I can see how advertising Mario with a water pack would put off consumers. They might think it's a spin off. |
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SupooperMario4 posted...
Still won't ever understand how getting lost = too difficult. Getting lost is just getting lost, lol. Wonder how these type of people would feel about a game like BOTW? BotW has a built-in map, like almost all comparable modern games. It's essentially impossible to get lost because the game will show you a visually simplified 2D representation of the area. It also allows you to drop enormous vertical coloured lights onto interesting spots. Even with all that, you can see that BotW's designers were worried abut players and made efforts to give players lifelines. For example, in the very earliest moments it: - firstly, locks you in a small and short and totally linear area that you have to get through that allows the game to hand you stuff and get you used to basic concepts like moving - secondly, immediately afterwards, takes camera and movement control away from you and pushes you to a totally non-threatening area that's high up with a great view, which is essentially the game shouting "this is a BIG GAME" at you - thirdly, before giving you back control, gives up on subtlety and simply points you in the direction it wants you to start moving You see tricks like this all throughout gaming, as designers try to ease new players into their worlds while losing as few players as possible. Trippotato posted... I guess at the time of 64's release that would have made sense. But look at times now, kids are most into COD, Minecraft, etc. all 3D games. While this is true, 3D Mario games generally demand much more precision in terms of navigating a 3D space than Call of Duty. If you play through a typical Call of Duty level how many times is there a real chance of failing a navigational task like jumping a gap or climbing something? Even a relatively simple 3D Mario level has numerous chances to fail a navigational test. |
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Anclation posted...
Mozzezz posted...Sad to say but I think they are really over analyzing the reason Sunshine didn't sell. Thanks for the support. Trippotato posted... Mozzezz posted...Sad to say but I think they are really over analyzing the reason Sunshine didn't sell. There's actually I think a couple reasons behind my second reason for it not selling. First, the water pack was not just a power up, you had to deal with it the whole game and that was off putting. Second, it basically just came off as a Super Soaker. You basically wouldn't get any real pressure in a pack like that unless it was hooked up to a hose, or had a giant motor in it, but with the motor it would be heavy and run out fast (at least as far as I know). Third, water (though it can be strong with things like tsunamis, pressure washers, and stuff) just comes off as a weak element. There's no bang for your buck or violence like say the Fire Flower.
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Mozzezz posted...
Anclation posted...Mozzezz posted...Sad to say but I think they are really over analyzing the reason Sunshine didn't sell. Umm, what? Sounds like you're just nitpicking random things. The boxart should've featured Mario in a more traditional setting and maybe people would have assumed it to be the next main series game. That is, the few people who actually bought the GameCube in the first place |
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How delusional of them to believe that was the reason Sunshine sold so poorly compared to 64.
It couldn't possibly be the stupid, childish water pack gimmick Or the clean the environment theme Or the boring beach setting for the entire game
the end of one nightmare, prelude to the another...
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Trippotato posted...
Mozzezz posted...Anclation posted...Mozzezz posted...Sad to say but I think they are really over analyzing the reason Sunshine didn't sell. I disagree with the nitpicking comment, I feel like I am pretty in tune with what people think about games, at least people my age. I do agree there is a real possibility that people did think it was a spin off, but I'm just not as sure of that as some of my other comments.
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Mr_Big_Boss posted...
How delusional of them to believe that was the reason Sunshine sold so poorly compared to 64. Your opinion does not equal everyone's opinion.
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans.
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Aldo1981 posted...
Mr_Big_Boss posted...How delusional of them to believe that was the reason Sunshine sold so poorly compared to 64. To be fair, I agree with him on the delusional part, but not the rest of the post. |
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It isn't so much the exploration, I don't think. It is having a dynamic camera and more complex actions. A lot of people simply can't handle moving in 3D, or controlling a camera, or stringing together actions on several buttons. If you've ever seen a non-gamer playing a 3D game, it can just be a sad show of them only doing one thing at a time. Its easy to be dismissive about this sort of thing, but at the advent of the twin stick control set-up it was a big learning curve for everybody. I remember some Alien game on Playstation that was criticized heavily when it was an early example of twin-stick control.
2D and 3D games both have their strengths and audiences. Nintendo needs to be mindful of both and not pull another Wii U where they are pumping out nothing but 2D platformers.
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Trippotato posted...
The fact that you're mentioning Super Soakers and "Water being a weak element" clearly shows you do not know the actual flaws that Sunshine had Well I haven't actually played it yet, so it's hard for me to say exactly what flaws it had. But if someone just looked at the box art, or saw a quick preview of the game, I bet they would have many of the same thoughts I have. And some times that's all the chance you get before buying a game. Most of what Nintendo basically just said to me is "we think most people are too stupid to play our games" which is incredibly arrogant, especially since in the 3D era many of Nintendo's games, and games in general (though not all), are much easier then the 2D era. That's not to say that some of these easier games don't still have various things worthwhile either though. Nintendo should maybe stop worrying so much about dumbing down their games and focus on making a high quality product.
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Assuming this writeup is true...
Theyre making the false equivalency that 3D Mario suffered losses due to 3D transitioning and not bigger factors like increasing competition between Sony Nintendo leading to a small userbase for the GC, or that most the people who bought Wiis got them for Wii Sports rather than Mario. Theyre looking at it backwards. Its about timing and demograph, not the linearity of the game.
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_Candice_ posted...
Theyre making the false equivalency that 3D Mario suffered losses due to 3D transitioning and not bigger factors like increasing competition between Sony Nintendo leading to a small userbase for the GC, or that most the people who bought Wiis got them for Wii Sports rather than Mario. This would be a strong argument, except New Super Mario Bros. was the best-selling game on DS (by a sizeable margin) and NSMB Wii heavily outsold both the Galaxy games (in fact outselling them combined). So given the largest possible Nintendo userbase, 2D Mario is significantly more popular than 3D Mario. Things got much closer on 3DS (where NSMB2 sold the same as 3D Land) and Wii U (where NSMBU outsold 3D World, but only just barely), so it seems plausible to say that Nintendo's more devoted fans like 2D Mario and 3D Mario about equally, but within the wider audience of all Mario fans there's a clear preference for the 2D games. |
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Eoin posted...
This would be a strong argument, except New Super Mario Bros. was the best-selling game on DS (by a sizeable margin) and NSMB Wii heavily outsold both the Galaxy games (in fact outselling them combined). Didnt DS sell 150m units? Also Im pretty sure both were pack-ins at some point. So given the largest possible Nintendo userbase, 2D Mario is significantly more popular than 3D Mario. Its not 2D Mario thats popular, its portable Mario games. The handheld consoles are cheap and games sell like hotcakes. Things got much closer on 3DS (where NSMB2 sold the same as 3D Land) and Wii U (where NSMBU outsold 3D World, but only just barely), so it seems plausible to say that Nintendo's more devoted fans like 2D Mario and 3D Mario about equally, but within the wider audience of all Mario fans there's a clear preference for the 2D games. Which reinforces my prior point. If you look at 3DLand outselling 3D World, and NSMB2 outselling U you have an observable pattern. You need a big userbase to supplant a large volume of sales. Sunshine selling "poor" because it had a small userbase wasnt a good gauge of game design or quality, and neither is Galaxy a bad game for reaching only 10% of its overall userbase. They could have released in reverse order and yielded similar sales.
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_Candice_ posted...
Didnt DS sell 150m units? Also Im pretty sure both were pack-ins at some point. Yes, DS sold around 150m units. I'm not sure what the point of saying that is though. It had both 2D and 3D Mario games and 2D vastly outsold 3D. _Candice_ posted... Its not 2D Mario thats popular, its portable Mario games. The handheld consoles are cheap and games sell like hotcakes. It's not a simple matter of portable vs console. On DS, 2D vastly outsold 3D. On Wii, 2D vastly outsold 3D. There is a clear pattern, but it's not the one you're drawing. The larger the audience (DS, Wii), the bigger the gap between 2D and 3D. With smaller audiences who are more likely to be longer-time Nintendo players (3DS, Wii U), the gap narrows. To be clear, nobody is calling the 3D Mario games "bad games" for not selling as much. The original argument, from Miyamoto, is that the added complexity of 3D Mario games shrinks the audience. Based on what we know, this checks out. The only machine where the best-selling Mario game is a 3D platformer is the N64 and there were no 2D Mario platformers available on N64 to compare. Whenever a machine has had both traditional-type 2D Mario games and 3D Mario games of any type, 2D Mario has sold more (or on 3DS, exactly the same). That pattern holds regardless of whether the machine is a handheld or home console. The audience for 3D Mario appears to top out at around 13m regardless of the potential userbase (Galaxy sold just under this amount, as did Super Mario 64 in both editions). 6 2D Mario games have sold more than that (SMB, NSMB, NSMB Wii, Super Mario World, Super Mario Land and SMB3), and another two are very close to it (Super Mario Land 2 at just over 11m, Allstars at around 10.5m). |
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Eoin posted...
So given the largest possible Nintendo userbase, 2D Mario is significantly more popular than 3D Mario. But that userbase is also more casual and less committed, as Nintendo found out when they tried having a 2D Mario as the Wii U's flagship launch game. In my opinion that was a huge reason why the Wii U got off to such a bad start, despite actually having plenty of third party support early on. Indeed, 2D Marios will sell obscene amounts on Nintendo systems with massive existing userbases (like the DS and the Wii), but they won't actually sell a lot of $300 consoles on their own, the way something like a Mario 64 or a Breath of the Wild do.
Yeah... Sorry.
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Anclation posted...
Eoin posted...So given the largest possible Nintendo userbase, 2D Mario is significantly more popular than 3D Mario. New Super Mario Bros. Wii was the right thing at the right time. It was the first multiplayer 2D Mario entry on a system that attracted casuals who hadn't been into gaming since the NES days. People claim that NSMB will sell a console, and then they always ignore that NSMBU did basically nothing to save the Wii U. Like I said, NSMBW was the right thing at the right time. |
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Eoin posted...
The original argument, from Miyamoto, is that the added complexity of 3D Mario games shrinks the audience. Based on what we know, this checks out. Except this doesn't really check out. 3D Mario games are a lot of fun, but if you don't count warp points and whistles, 2D Mario is actually much harder then 3D Mario. Then there's the fact that if people are worried about getting lost in a 3D game (some 2D games you can get just as lost), you almost always have had the option of a strategy guide, and now you have the internet, which most of the time is free and is probably even easier to avoid things like spoilers since you can search specific things more easily. I would say on average your player is more skilled then Nintendo assumes, and don't appreciate things like the over abundance of lives in Galaxy, choosing 2D Mario because of having more skill rather then a lack of skill. I love me some 3D Mario for various reasons, especially Galaxy and 64, but I can't deny these truths either. I think the biggest downside to 2D Mario is that in terms of repetitiveness, it is, nowadays, a lot more stale then 3D Mario.
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Eoin posted...
Yes, DS sold around 150m units. I'm not sure what the point of saying that is though. It had both 2D and 3D Mario games and 2D vastly outsold 3D. Many times the only choice is to buy a bundle. The fact they were pack-ins inflated their sales giving them a higher attach rate. Doesnt imply inherent interest for the game. It's not a simple matter of portable vs console. On DS, 2D vastly outsold 3D. On Wii, 2D vastly outsold 3D. There is a clear pattern, but it's not the one you're drawing. The larger the audience (DS, Wii), the bigger the gap between 2D and 3D. With smaller audiences who are more likely to be longer-time Nintendo players (3DS, Wii U), the gap narrows. See above. The DS had only one pack-in 2D Mario and only one 3D game. We dont even have a reasonable sample size of each gametype on the DS to conclude that to be true. And for the Wii we had one pack-in 2D Mario and two 3D games. Still, small sample size to judge an inherent interest in either. The original argument, from Miyamoto, is that the added complexity of 3D Mario games shrinks the audience. Based on what we know, this checks out. The only machine where the best-selling Mario game is a 3D platformer is the N64 and there were no 2D Mario platformers available on N64 to compare. Whenever a machine has had both traditional-type 2D Mario games and 3D Mario games of any type, 2D Mario has sold more (or on 3DS, exactly the same). That pattern holds regardless of whether the machine is a handheld or home console. For your logic to be concrete this trend would have to be consistent across all Nintendo platforms. The 3DS and Wii U do not follow this "trend" and there isnt enough information on all other platforms for this to be conclusive. Handhelds selling better than home consoles is economics, this however is conjecture.
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lol at people hounding Eoin for suggesting the fact that on a large scale, 2D Mario outsells 3D Mario, and used many examples of this
Yes, casuals like 2D Mario more than 3D Mario, and they like Fates and Awakening more than nearly every other Fire Emblem and they like Mario Kart more than F-Zero If that hurts your feelings, deal with it, it's the truth, and you are going to get more 2D Mario, Waifu Emblem and Mario Kart because they sell better, even if you hate them
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and there isnt enough information on all other platforms for this to be conclusive. Why not? The worst selling non-remake 2D Mario has outsold the best selling 3D Mario If 3D Mario was so popular, it could at least do better than that
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DuranmanX4 posted...
The worst selling non-remake 2D Mario has outsold the best selling 3D Mario Most of the 3D Marios outsold NSMBU (which wasn't a remake), and even Super Mario 3D World sold comparably to it despite not benefiting from being a flagship launch game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Wii_U_video_games Mario 3D Land and NSMB2 also sold about the same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Nintendo_3DS_video_games
Yeah... Sorry.
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Games that sold well were generally on consoles that sold well and vice versa.
Dont believe my reasoning? Look at the NSMB series. It peaked at Wii and is currently at its lowest. Recently 3D has been faring better. I dont deny there may be an interest but there just isnt enough data. Its honestly grasping straws to say either has more interest.
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kirbyhoakage posted...
If you got lost in super mario 64 you got bigger problems to worry about as your brain is most likely functioning at a below average 8 year old kids brain. so the general demographic of Nintendo gamers in the 90s?
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Mozzezz posted...
3D Mario games are a lot of fun, but if you don't count warp points and whistles, 2D Mario is actually much harder then 3D Mario. You're saying that from the perspective of a player who has tried both and is used to navigating 3D spaces in games. Miyamoto's point is that a portion of Mario players will not even try a 3D Mario game because they are put off by the idea of having to navigate Mario in 3D. It's not a matter of difficulty versus easiness. It's a matter of complexity versus simpleness. Mozzezz posted... I would say on average your player is more skilled then Nintendo assumes Then upload a Super Mario Maker level and watch as that little perception bubble gets popped. _Candice_ posted... Many times the only choice is to buy a bundle. Okay, so give me specific maximum number of game sales for each 2D Mario game that you are going to immediately dismiss as not counting because they were part of a bundle. To make this argument work for you, you have to want to dismiss a large majority of 2D Mario sales. Then you also have to try to explain why those games were sold in bundles. Just to pick the DS, NSMB was released well into the lifetime of the DS. Supply of the machine was not an issue. People had options for buying a DS that didn't include NSMB. Buying a bundle that included it meant that they wanted that game - that's a sale. Not only that, but there's a reason games are included in bundles in the first place. Outside of launch where all kinds of nonsense gets thrown into bundles, things that are bundled are usually included because they are attractive products. Nintendo bundling 2D Mario games more than 3D Mario games is Nintendo telling you that they think, based on their data, that 2D Mario games are more attractive products. 3D Mario arguably isn't even Mario's secondary gameplay type, since the second most popular kind of Mario game, by sales, is Mario Kart. _Candice_ posted... For your logic to be concrete this trend would have to be consistent across all Nintendo platforms. No, the argument is about whether going 3D shrinks Mario's potential audience. Platforms where the audience is already shrunken due to other factors aren't helpful when we're considering the upper limits of Mario's appeal. _Candice_ posted... Handhelds selling better than home consoles is economics, this however is conjecture. It is conjecture. However it is conjecture that has stood for well over a decade, whereas your original point (that 3D Mario games sold less due to the userbase) can be dismissed immediately based on the fact that even when presented with exactly the same userbase, any time we've had a chance to compare them, 3D Mario games have never outsold 2D Mario games. |
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Eoin posted...
Miyamoto's point is that a portion of Mario players will not even try a 3D Mario game because they are put off by the idea of having to navigate Mario in 3D. If that's what he meant then I could understand that. Eoin posted... It's not a matter of difficulty versus easiness. It's a matter of complexity versus simpleness. I see what you are saying here, but the "complexity" (which I would still say for the consumer translates to easiness and difficultness just for different reasons) could be reduced significantly with either a strategy guide (usually between $10-$20) or now the internet (usually free). Maybe people are really that cheap or stupid though lol. Eoin posted... Then upload a Super Mario Maker level and watch as that little perception bubble gets popped. Maybe if what I just posted above is true, then yes, this perception could pop. I was actually thinking about it, and besides having skill in 2D Mario, not having skill in 2D Mario, or just not wanting to play a 3D Mario, another option is simply nostalgia for picking 2D Mario. This may be the reason 2D Mario peaked in the Wii era (as someone mentioned). We had gone two generations without a proper 2D Mario on consoles, people who played 2D Mario were starting to get older and possible move on from video games in their lives, and wanted to take one last look at something significant from their childhood. However, even if I essentially concede defeat in most of these areas, I still think my reasoning for Sunshine being the worst selling 3D Mario is still pretty solid. You would just add in some of Miyamoto's observations in addition to mine (and the few other people in this topic who basically agreed with me).
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Mozzezz posted...
I see what you are saying here, but the "complexity" (which I would still say for the consumer translates to easiness and difficultness just for different reasons) could be reduced significantly with either a strategy guide (usually between $10-$20) or now the internet (usually free). Maybe people are really that cheap or stupid though lol. You're looking at that from a different perspective to the people making the decision though. When someone looks at a US$60 game and thinks "not interested", that's not a problem for them. They have no interest in changing that decision - certainly not if it involves buying a strategy guide. Even in 2002 there wasn't a shortage of alternatives for them to choose from - and nowadays there's more options than ever. I think it's might also be useful to reiterate something TomorrowDog said earlier: If you've ever seen a non-gamer playing a 3D game, it can just be a sad show of them only doing one thing at a time. This is something I don't think many people who dedicate lots of time to video games really recognise. Games left a lot of people behind. The ability to effortlessly navigate an object in 3D space with arbitrary physics using two sticks and maybe 12 or more buttons is pretty normal for people on GameFAQs and other gaming forums but rather unusual for the general population. We compare ourselves to the best players and underestimate ourselves which means we overestimate the general population. That means when we see someone fail at a task in a game we could do easily, we think it's a failure of the player, rather than thinking that the task is too difficult. One way to illustrate this for yourself is to check PlayStation trophy statistics for random games just to see where people stop playing. Here's a few as examples: 21.6% of Terraria players do not have the trophy for surviving the first night (getting this trophy is a matter of minutes and you get it for simply being alive in the morning - you respawn infinitely so dying does not stop you getting this trophy). 41.6% of Injustice 2 players are less than half-way through the story. 16.4% of FFXV players have never used magic of any kind. It's not that these players are "cheap or stupid" - I'm sure there are elements of both, but they're not general attributes. It's mainly that almost all players will not have the same kind of experience that we do - the hours (in many cases thousands or tens of thousands of hours) playing games that allows us to mentally deconstruct and understand games on their own terms. For people who don't have that experience games are a weird mystery and the first big barrier stopping them from understanding that mystery is the controls. Mozzezz posted... I was actually thinking about it, and besides having skill in 2D Mario, not having skill in 2D Mario, or just not wanting to play a 3D Mario, another option is simply nostalgia for picking 2D Mario. Yes I imagine that's a part of it. Mozzezz posted... I still think my reasoning for Sunshine being the worst selling 3D Mario is still pretty solid. Probably. I don't think there's many people who would try to argue that Super Mario Sunshine was the most appealing 3D Mario game, so it surely had its own specific appeal-limiting factors in addition to being a 3D game. The GameCube's limited user base and the weirdly specific accessory are indeed likely to have been among those factors. |
- Boards
- Nintendo Switch
- Nintendo's frustrations with 3D Mario (Interview before Odyssey development)
- Boards
- Nintendo Switch
- Nintendo's frustrations with 3D Mario (Interview before Odyssey development)
Eoin posted...Mozzezz posted...
I see what you are saying here, but the "complexity" (which I would still say for the consumer translates to easiness and difficultness just for different reasons) could be reduced significantly with either a strategy guide (usually between $10-$20) or now the internet (usually free). Maybe people are really that cheap or stupid though lol.
You're looking at that from a different perspective to the people making the decision though. When someone looks at a US$60 game and thinks "not interested", that's not a problem for them. They have no interest in changing that decision - certainly not if it involves buying a strategy guide. Even in 2002 there wasn't a shortage of alternatives for them to choose from - and nowadays there's more options than ever.
I think it's might also be useful to reiterate something TomorrowDog said earlier:If you've ever seen a non-gamer playing a 3D game, it can just be a sad show of them only doing one thing at a time.
This is something I don't think many people who dedicate lots of time to video games really recognise. Games left a lot of people behind. The ability to effortlessly navigate an object in 3D space with arbitrary physics using two sticks and maybe 12 or more buttons is pretty normal for people on GameFAQs and other gaming forums but rather unusual for the general population.
We compare ourselves to the best players and underestimate ourselves which means we overestimate the general population. That means when we see someone fail at a task in a game we could do easily, we think it's a failure of the player, rather than thinking that the task is too difficult.
One way to illustrate this for yourself is to check PlayStation trophy statistics for random games just to see where people stop playing. Here's a few as examples: 21.6% of Terraria players do not have the trophy for surviving the first night (getting this trophy is a matter of minutes and you get it for simply being alive in the morning - you respawn infinitely so dying does not stop you getting this trophy). 41.6% of Injustice 2 players are less than half-way through the story. 16.4% of FFXV players have never used magic of any kind.
It's not that these players are "cheap or stupid" - I'm sure there are elements of both, but they're not general attributes. It's mainly that almost all players will not have the same kind of experience that we do - the hours (in many cases thousands or tens of thousands of hours) playing games that allows us to mentally deconstruct and understand games on their own terms. For people who don't have that experience games are a weird mystery and the first big barrier stopping them from understanding that mystery is the controls.
Mozzezz posted...I was actually thinking about it, and besides having skill in 2D Mario, not having skill in 2D Mario, or just not wanting to play a 3D Mario, another option is simply nostalgia for picking 2D Mario.
Yes I imagine that's a part of it.
Mozzezz posted...I still think my reasoning for Sunshine being the worst selling 3D Mario is still pretty solid.
Probably. I don't think there's many people who would try to argue that Super Mario Sunshine was the most appealing 3D Mario game, so it surely had its own specific appeal-limiting factors in addition to being a 3D game. The GameCube's limited user base and the weirdly specific accessory are indeed likely to have been among those factors.
This is a pretty insightful post, and I pretty much agree with all of it.
...SSBB Friend Code: 3823-8247-5632 N3DS Friend Code: 0189-8871-1995LuigiFan835 posted...Sunshine sold poorly because GCN sold like crap and it had a weird water gimmick. I loved it, but I understand why people weren't hooked at first
Why a game sold poorly and why some people don't like it are entirely different things
Using that logic, COD and FIFA would sell poorly because tons of people don't like those games
You'll rarely ever hear why casual fans didn't buy a game, because they hardly voice their complaints online
There is a reason they are called the silent majority, and unfortunately the vocal minority tries to act as their mouthpiece, which almost always turns out poorlyRetail Wii U and 3DS games: https://sta.sh/02egamz324w0
Retail PS4 and VITA games: https://sta.sh/09xbomh9bc4Eoin posted...Then you also have to try to explain why those games were sold in bundles. Just to pick the DS, NSMB was released well into the lifetime of the DS. Supply of the machine was not an issue. People had options for buying a DS that didn't include NSMB. Buying a bundle that included it meant that they wanted that game - that's a sale.
Theres just one problem with that. While there is clear demand for a Mario game, this doesnt imply anyone wanted it because it was 2D. False equivalency.Not only that, but there's a reason games are included in bundles in the first place. Outside of launch where all kinds of nonsense gets thrown into bundles, things that are bundled are usually included because they are attractive products. Nintendo bundling 2D Mario games more than 3D Mario games is Nintendo telling you that they think, based on their data, that 2D Mario games are more attractive products.
And that reason usually is because theyre cheaper to pack-in. Launch day special edition game consoles are a different story.No, the argument is about whether going 3D shrinks Mario's potential audience. Platforms where the audience is already shrunken due to other factors aren't helpful when we're considering the upper limits of Mario's appeal.
So at what point does your audience matter? 5m users? 10m? 20m? This thinking is infantile garbage.
This is why we have the attach rate. To tell us how much of the userbase bought said game. A game selling 10m units on a console that sold 20m is more impressive than a game that sold 10m on a 100+m install base.
This itself implies real demand for said game.It is conjecture. However it is conjecture that has stood for well over a decade.
Your argument is not only wrong but depends on many exceptions to make it work, and the instances you are dead wrong just dont matter. An argument based on ignorance.
You hold a magnifying glass over the Wii/DS gen to say theres more demand for 2D despite the fact that 2D Mario sales have dropped since then, whereas 3D is still going strong. To you the 3DS does not matter despite the 3DS having a large userbase where NSMB2 and SM3DL were selling near equally. The Wii U also does not matter because of its sales slouch, even though NSMBU was a pack-in shortly after launch and barely beat SM3DW which came out a year after. So out of the past "decade" your argument is only good for two of those years? Three if you count NSMB releasing in 2006.
I get it, you like 2D Mario but bias does not constitute an argument. Miyamotos comment is PR-speak and nothing more.
Also take an economics class.Check out my channel!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK5E9xNR20EnKQTF6UFU6XQBowserNeo posted...Lol, this article shows exactly what was wrong with Nintendo's mindset in the Wii U era.
Wii tricked them into thinking that they should just pump out easy casual games and it would make millions.
Yup exactly, I heard this interview before and they were saying this dumbs*** around the time 3D Land was releasing. Which is likely why that took concepts that work for handhelds and put them in home console versions. Paper Mario Color Splash is another example.I don't give a damn how many mushrooms I can find, how many meals I can cook and how many mountains I can climb in Breath of the Wild if the dungeons are trash._Candice_ posted...This thinking is infantile garbage.
_Candice_ posted...Also take an economics class.
Everything I've said to you has been respectful and in the spirit of discussion and this is how you respond? Take s*** like this out of your post and I'll be happy to discuss this with you. I'm not going to respond any further, however, if this is what I can expect in your future posts.Eoin posted...Everything I've said to you has been respectful and in the spirit of discussion and this is how you respond? Take s*** like this out of your post and I'll be happy to discuss this with you. I'm not going to respond any further, however, if this is what I can expect in your future posts.
In other words, you couldnt refute my argument and this is your cop-out.
Might as well put me on ignore too!Check out my channel!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK5E9xNR20EnKQTF6UFU6XQ_Candice_ posted...Eoin posted...
Everything I've said to you has been respectful and in the spirit of discussion and this is how you respond? Take s*** like this out of your post and I'll be happy to discuss this with you. I'm not going to respond any further, however, if this is what I can expect in your future posts.
In other words, you couldnt refute my argument and this is your cop-out.
Might as well put me on ignore too!
With posts like yours, I can see how GameFAQs gets it's great reputationRetail Wii U and 3DS games: https://sta.sh/02egamz324w0
Retail PS4 and VITA games: https://sta.sh/09xbomh9bc417chris posted...BowserNeo posted...
Lol, this article shows exactly what was wrong with Nintendo's mindset in the Wii U era.
Wii tricked them into thinking that they should just pump out easy casual games and it would make millions.
Yup exactly, I heard this interview before and they were saying this dumbs*** around the time 3D Land was releasing. Which is likely why that took concepts that work for handhelds and put them in home console versions. Paper Mario Color Splash is another example.
I think Intelligent Systems is a bit more stubborn than the 3D Mario team at Nintendo.That's why you create the level design to subtly push players in the right direction. Things like making an important ledge a lighter shade of color (Naughty Dog does this all the time), using lighting well such as putting bright spots near the destination, and even downhill gradients to herd them towards the right path or show them where they should head.'there's gAmes.and then thars gaM3w.it's a lovable character;it's a lovable guy. and he nolan snaked on you. so hard. the snake was in you so hard.'-ProletarianEternalWaltz posted...That's why you create the level design to subtly push players in the right direction. Things like making an important ledge a lighter shade of color (Naughty Dog does this all the time), using lighting well such as putting bright spots near the destination, and even downhill gradients to herd them towards the right path or show them where they should head.
64 and Sunshine had plenty of things like that. Even some levels had straight up arrow sign boards pointing you in the right direction. Gamers aren't so smart sometimes._Candice_ posted...Eoin posted...
Then you also have to try to explain why those games were sold in bundles. Just to pick the DS, NSMB was released well into the lifetime of the DS. Supply of the machine was not an issue. People had options for buying a DS that didn't include NSMB. Buying a bundle that included it meant that they wanted that game - that's a sale.
Theres just one problem with that. While there is clear demand for a Mario game, this doesnt imply anyone wanted it because it was 2D. False equivalency.Not only that, but there's a reason games are included in bundles in the first place. Outside of launch where all kinds of nonsense gets thrown into bundles, things that are bundled are usually included because they are attractive products. Nintendo bundling 2D Mario games more than 3D Mario games is Nintendo telling you that they think, based on their data, that 2D Mario games are more attractive products.
And that reason usually is because theyre cheaper to pack-in. Launch day special edition game consoles are a different story.No, the argument is about whether going 3D shrinks Mario's potential audience. Platforms where the audience is already shrunken due to other factors aren't helpful when we're considering the upper limits of Mario's appeal.
So at what point does your audience matter? 5m users? 10m? 20m? This thinking is infantile garbage.
This is why we have the attach rate. To tell us how much of the userbase bought said game. A game selling 10m units on a console that sold 20m is more impressive than a game that sold 10m on a 100+m install base.
This itself implies real demand for said game.It is conjecture. However it is conjecture that has stood for well over a decade.
Your argument is not only wrong but depends on many exceptions to make it work, and the instances you are dead wrong just dont matter. An argument based on ignorance.
You hold a magnifying glass over the Wii/DS gen to say theres more demand for 2D despite the fact that 2D Mario sales have dropped since then, whereas 3D is still going strong. To you the 3DS does not matter despite the 3DS having a large userbase where NSMB2 and SM3DL were selling near equally. The Wii U also does not matter because of its sales slouch, even though NSMBU was a pack-in shortly after launch and barely beat SM3DW which came out a year after. So out of the past "decade" your argument is only good for two of those years? Three if you count NSMB releasing in 2006.
I get it, you like 2D Mario but bias does not constitute an argument. Miyamotos comment is PR-speak and nothing more.
Also take an economics class.
What's funny is that I have 4 versions of Mario Kart (MK Wii, MK8, and 2 copies of MK7)in my household that all came bundled with their respective systems. I don't even like MK, but they all just happened to be bundled with the systems at the time that I wanted the systems.
Two copies of MK7 came from my daughters wanting 2DSs', and the only ones available last holiday season were the ones bundled with digital copies of MK7. I don't even think you could get a WiiU in the last year and a half that didn't come bundled with a digital copy of MK8.
I just think it's funny that I've contributed 4 sales to a series that I can live without.Ever since I started working, every day has been worse than the last, so every time you see me it's the worst day of my life. - Office SpaceDuranmanX4 posted...With posts like yours, I can see how GameFAQs gets it's great reputation
You mean Nintendofaqs? You can blame the NDF for that one.Check out my channel!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK5E9xNR20EnKQTF6UFU6XQThe problem with Sunshine wasn't complexity. It was over padded with collectathon tasks, and shooting a watergun wasn't as fun as pure platforming. There were so few pure platforming segments, and the setpiece bosses were also very rare.
Odyssey will NOT be better than 64. I have watched a lot of gameplay, and they force you to capture all the time as a way to mix up gameplay. capturing is a dumb, dumb idea. You are taking the glory of Marios rich moveset and dilluting it to a character with just 1 or 2 moves. I don't want to be a bullet bill. I never asked to be a bullet bill. I just want to be Mario navigating 3D environments. Its not cute being turned into 2D Mario either. Another regression. I'm still buying it, but I'm keeping my expectations low. In knew watching zelda videos last year it was going to be GOAT. Mario Odyssey is an 8 game that will be ballooned to 9 by nostalgia. It should sell better than Sunshine i think.Warning: the post you just read may contain satire, hyperbole, or deadpan. Reader digression is advised.Placiibo posted...Its not cute being turned into 2D Mario either.
2D Mario has gotten kind of stale, but I like when they have 2D segments in the 3D games, it really mixes things up and makes you think on your feet.
Btw, they have been putting 2D segments in mainline console 3D Mario since Galaxy.
The fact that they do that further enhances the redundancy of 2D Mario.SSBB Friend Code: 3823-8247-5632 N3DS Friend Code: 0189-8871-1995Mozzezz posted...Placiibo posted...
Its not cute being turned into 2D Mario either.
2D Mario has gotten kind of stale, but I like when they have 2D segments in the 3D games, it really mixes things up and makes you think on your feet.
Btw, they have been putting 2D segments in mainline console 3D Mario since Galaxy.
The fact that they do that further enhances the redundancy of 2D Mario.
He means the 2D Super Mario Bros. pixel art sections. Not the 2.5D sections.- Boards
- Nintendo Switch
- Nintendo's frustrations with 3D Mario (Interview before Odyssey development)
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