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- I've changed my view on Universal Basic Income
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I'm not sure how it's going to work. Maybe one day where AI makes the world run without the need of human workers, but I don't see that happening in our lifetimes.
But I really want it to work. People shouldn't be forced to give their lives away doing something they hate and is unhealthy for them just to get by.
Shenmue II = best game of all time
Shenmue = 2nd best game of all time |
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i dont understand how UBI wouldnt result in massive amounts of inflation, or at the very least, how it would prevent people from just raising the prices of everything
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green butter posted...
i dont understand how UBI wouldnt result in massive amounts of inflation, or at the very least, how it would prevent people from just raising the prices of everything It would result in inflation, but the necessities of life (food, etc.) would remain cheap because they are being produced at close to zero cost. |
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RedWhiteBlue posted...
Dramatic improvement for you, but yeah it won't happen anytime soon. @REMercsChamp Educate this unemployed leech TC |
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green butter posted...
i dont understand how UBI wouldnt result in massive amounts of inflation, or at the very least, how it would prevent people from just raising the prices of everything price is a result of demand inflation is a result of monetary policy and not fiscal policy demand is not 1:1 tied to the wealth of poor people; middle class consumption is dramatically higher. it might increase the cost of some luxury items as poor people become able to buy them but it is interesting how so many people who hate the welfare state are more open to UBI as a policy. it is encouraging. i understand it--mistrust of government drives mistrust of targeted govt services, but there is no target in UBI.
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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Damn_Underscore posted...
I'm not sure how it's going to work. Maybe one day where AI makes the world run without the need of human workers, but I don't see that happening in our lifetimes. It's going to happen soon. As soon as self driving cars are perfected, the trucking, taxi, shipping, delivery, shipping and several other industries are going to have massive layoffs, and that's all just from self driving cars.
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Definitely not a furry. |
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Darkman124 posted...
green butter posted...i dont understand how UBI wouldnt result in massive amounts of inflation, or at the very least, how it would prevent people from just raising the prices of everything but wouldnt the value of the dollar be less if everyone was, say, given $10k/yr in UBI? so the money gets devalued and as a result businesses raise prices so they can remain profitable, rent goes up, etc and now we are back to square one not trying to argue, i genuinely dont understand economics well and i just cant grasp this idea every time i hear it. |
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green butter posted...
no green butter posted... so the money gets devalued this is an assumption not a conclusion the value of a given currency is determined by the gross domestic product and the total supply of the currency
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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It's for me too see how it will work. We might call it UBI or just have the system now where more and more people get government benefits like social security, welfare, food stamps, housing, etc.
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#WeAre12 #12thMan #Seahawks #Belieber #UBI #PokemonGo #twitterfriends #MMA #PopularHashtags |
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Darkman124 posted...
but it is interesting how so many people who hate the welfare state are more open to UBI as a policy. it is encouraging. i understand it--mistrust of government drives mistrust of targeted govt services, but there is no target in UBI. that's what has always been interesting to me there are liberals, conservatives, etc. who are for it and against it. it kind of transcends our normal view on politics |
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green butter posted...
i dont understand how UBI wouldnt result in massive amounts of inflation, or at the very least, how it would prevent people from just raising the prices of everything The only way UBI will work is if prices are fixed by regulation. You'd also need a very significant amount of jobs to be automated. All production / agricultural jobs need to be predominantly automated with only a few human overseers that just oversee the machines and applications. |
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prince_leo posted...
Darkman124 posted...but it is interesting how so many people who hate the welfare state are more open to UBI as a policy. it is encouraging. i understand it--mistrust of government drives mistrust of targeted govt services, but there is no target in UBI. It has support from both the left and the libertarian right, but I think those two groups have very differing ideas on how it would be implemented.
an aspirin the size of the sun.
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ChromaticAngel posted...
nonsense ChromaticAngel posted... You'd also need a very significant amount of jobs to be automated. All production / agricultural jobs need to be predominantly automated with only a few human overseers that just oversee the machines and applications. sense UBI will work in a 'post scarcity' society where the pie has grown to astonishingly large levels but only those at the top get a slice and it will mainly work by providing enough crumbs that those at the bottom (ie most people) don't burn the whole thing to the ground
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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prince_leo posted...
Darkman124 posted...but it is interesting how so many people who hate the welfare state are more open to UBI as a policy. it is encouraging. i understand it--mistrust of government drives mistrust of targeted govt services, but there is no target in UBI. I could be wrong, but I feel like the reason why people are more accepting of it is the nature of primarily kin-interest (for us and family). Welfare is designed to help those at the bottom of the ladder by taking a bit from those above through taxes or charity. We think "I earned that, why do I have to give my time and hard work to others, it should be my decision to allocate my effort," and UBI is a way to extend the help to everyone, so we think "sweet, I am getting something." I don't think it's entirely inherently greed, as we still pay taxes and help those below, but UBI isn't biased and so we feel like we (middle class) are getting help since we struggle immensely as well. Also, I'd like to hear @The_Admiral 's thoughts on UBI since he has a degree in economics. Darkman says it can work, but I believe Admiral disagrees. |
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Everything will be produced and maintained by machines. So the cost of production will approach 0, which means we can maintain our standard of living with less hours worked.
These people are literally ignorant of the law. It's astounding. As the situation escalates I will come out victorious. - DawkinsNumber4
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I think a discinventive to work is a more serious concern than inflation.
But I think most people will end up doing something productive with their time, even if it isn't working for someone else
He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor.
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Antifar posted...
prince_leo posted...Darkman124 posted...but it is interesting how so many people who hate the welfare state are more open to UBI as a policy. it is encouraging. i understand it--mistrust of government drives mistrust of targeted govt services, but there is no target in UBI. Because UBI comes with the context of killing social programs. Basically, they're not okay with free money if they don't get any free money, but they are okay with free money if they are part of a group that gets free money. UBI covers everyone, so everyone gets free money. That's why a lot of Left/Right people agree on it. |
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RedWhiteBlue posted...
Darkman says it can work fwiw i am not saying it can work right now the amount of UBI we'd be able to support at present is pretty much below subsistence level and excluding those who would actually be paying in to the system doesn't really help that problem
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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Balrog0 posted...
I think a discinventive to work is a more serious concern than inflation. Welfare removes the incentive to work. UBI does not, at least not to the same degree as welfare. Means tested welfare means that a lot of people are stuck in welfare perpetually.
These people are literally ignorant of the law. It's astounding. As the situation escalates I will come out victorious. - DawkinsNumber4
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Ampelas posted...
RedWhiteBlue posted...Dramatic improvement for you, but yeah it won't happen anytime soon. There's basically two options 1. Get skills, get educated, make yourself relevant to a changing society 2. Fall by the wayside, complain that other people owe you free stuff and free money for doing nothing because, hey, you WERE born, weren't you? |
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UBI is an idealist concept. It just can't work in real life. That only thing that can possibly work is a Universal Basic Food Supply. You get fed and nothing else. If you want luxuries, you have to work for it.
UBI is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. It just doesn't work. Money isn't infinite. There is an economy behind it. If everyone gets the same basic income, it starts to lose value and inflation would rise, forcing the basic income to be raised constantly, which in turn raises inflation. People need to accept that life isn't fair and it will never be. Even in the age of automation, there will still be plenty of jobs, but only for those who are willing to work for it. If you want the best, you have to be among the best.
Sig under construction!
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GreatEvilEmpire posted...
UBI is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. It just doesn't work. Money isn't infinite. There is an economy behind it. If everyone gets the same basic income, it starts to lose value and inflation would rise, forcing the basic income to be raised constantly, which in turn raises inflation. this is not how inflation works
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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Darkman124 posted...
GreatEvilEmpire posted...UBI is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. It just doesn't work. Money isn't infinite. There is an economy behind it. If everyone gets the same basic income, it starts to lose value and inflation would rise, forcing the basic income to be raised constantly, which in turn raises inflation. It's one way to cause inflation.
Sig under construction!
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This won't happen. This discussion is purely academic.
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GreatEvilEmpire posted...
Darkman124 posted...GreatEvilEmpire posted...UBI is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. It just doesn't work. Money isn't infinite. There is an economy behind it. If everyone gets the same basic income, it starts to lose value and inflation would rise, forcing the basic income to be raised constantly, which in turn raises inflation. inflation is caused by increases in the monetary supply that are not consistent with increases in the size of the gross domestic product. it is driven by monetary policy and economic cycles. UBI is redistribution of existing wealth/income and is a fiscal policy. it does not change the money supply.
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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Darkman124 posted...
UBI is redistribution of existing wealth/income and is a fiscal policy. There are other potential economic pitfalls to wealth redistribution regardless of inflation though. |
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Darkman124 posted...
No, but it'll change everything. Everything. You can't make this kind of change without consequences. The rich would be taxed heavily. Business would be controlled by government. The wealthy would flee to other countries. Everything changes. First you start with socialism and you end with communism. Next thing you know, you've given up all your rights for your UBI. No thanks. Things are never as simple as you imagine it. This kind of change will have a drastic effect on the economy and the government.
Sig under construction!
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Gojak_v3 posted...
Darkman124 posted...UBI is redistribution of existing wealth/income and is a fiscal policy. in theory. in practice, it depends on the extent of the taxation used to fund it. but the idea that it would force inflation 'because poor people having money means inflation' is one held exclusively by people who are speaking out of their asses. i do not recommend this: when you do so, you tend to eat s***. GreatEvilEmpire posted... Darkman124 posted... case in point.
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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GreatEvilEmpire posted...
Darkman124 posted...GreatEvilEmpire posted...UBI is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. It just doesn't work. Money isn't infinite. There is an economy behind it. If everyone gets the same basic income, it starts to lose value and inflation would rise, forcing the basic income to be raised constantly, which in turn raises inflation. inflation is caused by a growing population. Imagine this. Lets say you started with 10,000 people in a country, and that country has 1,000,000 megabux for its currency, and it never increases. so you have each guy with an average of 100 megabux. a few years down the road, people have some real wild parties and now there are 100,000 people, but only 1,000,000 megabux. Now each person has an average of 10 megabux. This is obviously unsustainable. So you have two options. 1. increase the amount of megabux in circulation 2. use government fiat to lower the price of everything by an arbitrary amount that may/may not make any sense. Option 2 is stupid and makes no real sense on a conceptual level. "But what about bitcoin?!" Bit coin operates by making smaller and smaller fractions of itself which is not fundamentally different from adding zeros to your existing bills, and then breaking them up into smaller chunks. |
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